Abortion debate (3 Viewers)

[robbie1]

Don't you even THINK of pulling that shit on me. EVER.

I am living proof that there is no loving god that looks after people. You want to know something about me?

I grew up in Croatia during the civil war and if you precious god exists, where was he when my family needed him? Nowhere. Three of my brothers died from gunshots and landmines, I was shot in my leg outside my school, my muslim friend and her family were slain to death in their home, I was beaten to near death by rebel soilders, my Nana died when our house was set on fire. Our next house was set on fire and we ended up having to flee the country.

And where was god? Nowhere.

DON'T pull Jesus shit on me. It will get you nowhere.

Are your whole family atheists?

 

[kateri88]

I applaud your efforts, but your way off the mark my friend.

The body belongs to God, but the one thing on this earth that belongs to us humans is our free will - given to us by God.

So therfore we are responsible for our own actions. Everytime we sin (and abortion is a major sin) we crucify Jesus in our hearts because He lives in each one of us, whether you accept that or not. You don't have to while your here, as it you can exercise your free will.

But when you leave this earth you will have to answer to Him, just as I will.

couldnt have said it any better myself

 

[Not-That-Bright]

The body belongs to God, but the one thing on this earth that belongs to us humans is our free will - given to us by God.

God knows all right?
And we have free will?

Is it possible for us to do anything that god does not already know we were going to do? If not then I contend we don't have free will as we essentially must do what he forsee's, if we can then he doesn't know everything. I wonder if you christians ever think about questions like this. Don't they kinda bug you? I mean the nature of God seems so completely illogical that the best thing that could be said about it if God does indeed exist, is that it is beyond us - yet you people still feel the need to give God these rules? How does it make sense?

 

[*Minka*]

Are your whole family atheists?

We are now, yes. I grew up with it, but there was a time when some of my older family members, particualry my grandparents were.

 

[*Minka*]

that is an irresponsible and divisive statement realing more about your sexist views than his. there are lots of women who are against abortion and lots of men who are pro choice. just as there are lots of men against abortion and lots of women who are pro choice. the role of men in improving womens rights is one of the most ignored aspects of modern history. if it was a simnple man vs woman stuggle i assure you that in our current society man would win.

Prick.

I am far from a sexist - I said a lot of men, not all men and I am well aware of the fact that many men support a womans right to choose what she does with her own body. There are many prominant male politicions out there trying to tell women that their uterus is basically a baby machine and that she has no rights. If a woman doesn't want an abortion, thats fine because no one is making her have one, but she has no right to infringe on anothers right to choose what to do with her pregnancy.

Of course men have played some part in devloping womens rights, but there are many still trapped in that sorry Christian mindsight of women submitting and popping out a baby a year and being their property.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

if it was a simnple man vs woman stuggle i assure you that in our current society man would win.

It's not man vs woman tho I'm afraid. It's men and women vs little boys.

 

[robbie1]

Poem: A Great Loss
Jessica (USA)
Received: October 25, 2003

I was so desperate, alone, and sad.
My heart was locked and you were the key.
You became my life, all that I loved and had.
Then one morning you were brutally taken from me.

It was cold-blooded murder, nothing less.
It's so unfair, I'm alive and you're dead.
You were the one innocent and helpless.
You died so quickly, no "Goodbye" said.

When you left, you took a piece of my soul and heart.
Without you I'll never again be complete.
My life will always be missing a part.
My heart will always pound a lonely beat.

It seems like tears from Heaven when it rains.
And with an empty heart, I look for you in the stars.
There's no sign of any physical pain,
But, no one can see the emotional scars.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Oh a poorly composed poem, how interesting.

 

[kami]

Whoever calls you a whore, they're right, how can you expect people to respect anyone who doesent even respect themselves?

Since when did enjoying a sensation or intimacy become reprehensible? It is an instinctive intimacy between two individuals, the only time it would affect anyone else is when someone gets pregnant and if appropriate measures are taken then this should not happen (in theory). I don't understand why you would be against two people sharing intimacy...

If they don't want a baby, why did they spread their legs?

It's simple really, if your not ready to raise a child, don't fall pregnant.

Its simple - they 'spread their legs' because they wanted to have sex, this does not neccesarily mean they are ready to have a child or even desire to have children. Its also foolish to expect people to abstain completely - we're biologically engineered to desire sex to some extent or another so forbidding sex isn't going to work in the long term. I'd argue that protected sex is responsible - if a couple knows they aren't ready for children then they are in control of(and responsible for) the preventative measures to prevent pregnancy. This is why education and promotion of safe sex is important so that it forestalls unintended pregnancies and thus the abortions you dissaprove of.

You say that even though a fetus has its own genetic identity, its own bodily function and uniqueality, it does not constitute human becuase it does not posses "higher mental function" or "acute self awareness." Yet neither do people in comas, epeleptics, some of the mentally ill. and ofcourse people who are sleeping. Thus if somebody killed you tommorow at night in your sleep, you would have no problem with it since you were not "alive" by your definition anyway.

One main point is that a foetus is (in the early stages) unable to feel pain and so it is not as inhumane to terminate what is essentially a bundle of cells that cannot feel. Full grown people who are epileptics can feel pain - as someone who has epilepsy I can tell you that I would most certainly know (even in the midst of a seizure) that someone is caving my skull in. Similarly, there are many in comas who have been reported as having some sensation - not all coma patients are brain dead. Additionally if someone tried to cave your skull in while asleep you would notice and disagree.

Also, a foetus does not have the ability to want to live - people who sleep and epileptics and many of the mentally ill can desire life, the foetus does not yet recognise life so arguably it is different.

On another note bshoc, I wonder what you think of animals that are terminated at the pound because they are unwanted or livestock that is slaughtered for meat. Those are living, breathing things that feel pain to a far greater degree to a foetus, can survive independently of us and don't want to die. Yet the amounts of animals killed are far greater than that of women having abortions, and far less humanely as well. Is this more or less a crime to you than abortion?

An alternative to murder is a good one, nobody is asking for a law that the woman keeps her child, just that she not kill it for her own convenience. Expections for rape, incest, threat to the womans health and serious genetic defects - but thats it.

So you would do what you consider murder to a child because it is the child of a rapist or a relative? Thats drawing lines in the sand about what deserves to live and what doesn't - if it is alive, then you are saying it is ok to kill someone based on their parentage.

If it is the womans fault, she should not be premitted choice.

Fault? Don't you mean a couple's fault? As in the two people having sex. Or the man's fault in the case of rape...

most people who source overseas do so because of regulations and paperwork not because of lack of demand. once foster parents are in the system and approved there is considerable pressrue for them to keep taking kids and to care for multiple.

I was under the impression that this was for older children who have lost their parents, I was always told there is a far larger demand than supply as regards newborns. Would you know of any official links about this?

 

[The Brucemaster]

I applaud your efforts, but your way off the mark my friend.

The body belongs to God, but the one thing on this earth that belongs to us humans is our free will - given to us by God.

So therfore we are responsible for our own actions. Everytime we sin (and abortion is a major sin) we crucify Jesus in our hearts because He lives in each one of us, whether you accept that or not. You don't have to while your here, as you can exercise your free will.

But when you leave this earth you will have to answer to Him, just as I will.

Ok, I'm seeing a few troubling statements here:

1) "The only thing that belongs to us is our free will."

Well in that case, why are you bitching, if we have free will then women can do whatever the fuck they want with their lives and just because a book written by some old, white males a couple of millenia ago says that some things are bad doesn't mean we have to accept them as true.
On that note, I would be interested to know which verse in the Bible tells us not to abort foetuses. I'm not talking about thou shalt not kill because the issue here is whether or not a foetus is alive. If you can prove to me with solid scientific evidence that a foetus is alive from the moment of conception then i will happily accept that abortion is murder but until such time I'll keep defending women's right to choose.

2) "He lives in each one of us whether you accept that or not."

This makes no sense. Whether we accept a statement or not it is true.
Again, if you can prove this statement with scientific evidence, hell (excuse the pun) any reasonable evidence (this obviously excludes the Fred Nile argument of 'the Bible says it so it must be true') then i will gladly renounce my views.

 

[kateri88]

If you can prove to me with solid scientific evidence that a foetus is alive from the moment of conception then i will happily accept that abortion is murder but until such time I'll keep defending women's right to choose.

if you can prove using any accountable method whatsoever that the foetus is not alive from conception and doesn't have a soul,then you might have more validity to your argument...just because you can't physically prove something doesn't mean it isn't true

 

[veridis]

Are you willing to say that a 19 week abortion is any more moral than 22 weeks??? (jst for the record i know plenty of people who have healthily survived very premature pregancies)

19 and 22 no. 10 and 30, thats a difference. the fact that it is a complicated matter is why late term abortions are always under such intense medical scrutiny. somewhere along the line of conception to birth it becomes wrong to terminate, current medical knowledge puts that at around the 22-25 week mark for earliest and 30 for latest. thats why before abortions are legal, after complications are more likely addressed with c-section and in between is addressed on a case by case basis

on the point of premature pregnancies if you get the facts there is a 95% chance that it was 35 weeks or later. it is EXTREMELY unlikely that you know anyone who was born so early that abortion would have been an option a few days before birth

 

[*Minka*]

Poem: A Great Loss
Jessica (USA)
Received: October 25, 2003

I was so desperate, alone, and sad.
My heart was locked and you were the key.
You became my life, all that I loved and had.
Then one morning you were brutally taken from me.

It was cold-blooded murder, nothing less.
It's so unfair, I'm alive and you're dead.
You were the one innocent and helpless.
You died so quickly, no "Goodbye" said.

When you left, you took a piece of my soul and heart.
Without you I'll never again be complete.
My life will always be missing a part.
My heart will always pound a lonely beat.

It seems like tears from Heaven when it rains.
And with an empty heart, I look for you in the stars.
There's no sign of any physical pain,
But, no one can see the emotional scars.

Yawn.

Propaganda.

 

[veridis]

Prick.

I am far from a sexist - I said a lot of men, not all men and I am well aware of the fact that many men support a womans right to choose what she does with her own body. There are many prominant male politicions out there trying to tell women that their uterus is basically a baby machine and that she has no rights. If a woman doesn't want an abortion, thats fine because no one is making her have one, but she has no right to infringe on anothers right to choose what to do with her pregnancy.

Of course men have played some part in devloping womens rights, but there are many still trapped in that sorry Christian mindsight of women submitting and popping out a baby a year and being their property.

you said a lot of men? why? what on earth did it breing to the argument. what you were trying to do was to invalidate bshoc's arguments through demonising men and making us appear uncaring and anti-abortion. abortion is NOT a man vs woman issue. dont try to make it one.
again you make it a point the male politician is battling the female for control of her body. in reality it is the conservative elements of the political system extending regulations to infringe on human rights. again you make the point there are men with a "sorry christian mindsight" but dont mention that there are just as many women who share those same views.
you are using extremely gendered language, making your claims "i am far from sexist" really seem laugable. but dont take that as a personal attack. almost everyone is inherantly sexist, its unavoidable given the society we grow up in the the stereotypes we are exposed to. recgonising when we are sexist and consciously changing our behaviors is the only way to get past it

 

[robbie1]

http://tellmyabortionstory.com/subpage62.html

My abortion happened 17 years ago. I was dating a guy that I loved very much. We were in an on again, off again relationship for 4 years. Just before my abortion, we had a fight and broke up – for good. A couple weeks later, I found out that I was pregnant. When I told him that I was pregnant, he said that he wanted me to have an abortion because he didn’t think I would be a good mother. Also, he said I was a big baby and challenged me to finally be a woman. I really never thought he would want me to go through with it. I found out that he was dealing drugs and I wanted him out of my life, so I chose to follow through with his plan. He paid for my abortion with his drug money.

The night before my abortion, I couldn’t sleep. I was lying alone in bed with my own thoughts, and I knew what I was about to do was very wrong. Two years earlier, I had gone through the same situation, but decided to carry that pregnancy to term. Abortion was never even a consideration to me. But now that I had a 2 year old son, I didn’t want others to think I made the same mistake…again. The only people who knew I was pregnant were my mom and sister. When I woke up that morning, I called my sister and told her that I thought I was "miscarrying". I told her I was bleeding and wanted to know if she would watch my son.

After I dropped him off, I went to the abortion clinic. I noticed the picketers, and I wanted to make sure none of them knew me. I drove around the block. None of them looked familiar, so I pulled into the parking lot and went in. The picketers yelled stuff to me, but I felt they didn’t know my situation so they didn’t deserve my time. Once inside, I gave the receptionist a fake name. I felt numb. I filled out paper work, talked to a counselor, talked to a nurse, and tried not to think about what I was doing.

A nurse escorted me into the abortion room. She helped me get ready for the procedure and just asked me vague questions about the weather and if I was going to school. The abortionist came into the room and began my abortion. The nurse was leaning over me and starring into my eyes. After a little while, she asked the doctor "Is something wrong?" He said, "It is trying to get away – I’ve tried three times!" I was shocked!! What he said hit me like a ton of bricks. It is trying to get away! I started to pray and ask God to stop all this from happening – to not let it work – to let it fail – to put His hand in the way of the vacuum. I couldn’t believe what I was doing!!

Seconds later, the abortionist said, "It’s done". He put away his tools and left the room. From that moment on I have REGRETTED MY ABORTION!! I just wanted to run, to die…I was ANGRY! After the nurse left the room, I started to cry. A part of me died in that room. I knew what I did was wrong. The "IT" he was referring to was MY BABY!

As I walked down the steps to leave the place, I just bawled. I remember looking to the sky, wondering what God thought of me. The rest of the day, I laid on the couch. I would look at my son and just cry. I wanted to go back to that place and pull my baby out of the dumpster. If only I could live that day over again. My decision to have an abortion was final. It was over. I couldn’t go back. My mom, who thought I miscarried, encouraged me to name my baby and to write my baby a letter. I named my baby, Baby Chris and I wrote her a letter.

I still have things that make me grieve - like when I go to the dentist and hear the suction machine. My abortion happened two days before Valentines Day, so every February I feel depressed. Baby Chris would have been born in September. By now, she would be 16 years old. I wonder what she would look like. I wonder what her laugh would sound like. I wonder if she would have a boyfriend. On this earth, I will never be able to hold her or kiss her good night. To tell her I am sorry.

I can’t believe that I took the life of an innocent baby to make mine look better.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

that's awsm wobbi.

 

[The Brucemaster]

if you can prove using any accountable method whatsoever that the foetus is not alive from conception and doesn't have a soul,then you might have more validity to your argument...just because you can't physically prove something doesn't mean it isn't true

Very well then, seeing as you asked nicely:

While there is no universal agreement on the definition of life, scientists generally accept that the biological manifestation of life exhibits the following phenomena:

1. Organization - Living things are composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
2. Metabolism - Metabolism produces energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (synthesis) and decomposing organic matter (catalysis). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
3. Growth - Growth results from a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish.
4. Adaptation - Adaptation is the accommodation of a living organism to its environment. It is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
5. Response to stimuli - A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion: the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
6. Reproduction - The division of one cell to form two new cells is reproduction. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.

From Wikipedia


Keeping this in mind let us examine the foetus. In doing so we discover that it does not exhibit several of the above characteristics.

1) A foetus from the moment of conception does not have the ability to metabolise.

2) A foetus from the moment of conception does not have the ability to grow (this only occurs once it enters the uterus, correct me if im wrong).

3) A foetus, from the moment of conception, is unable to respond to stimuli.


As for the soul, you will have to prove to me that it exists at all first before I can show its existence in a foetus.


Good day and good night...


P.S. Robbie if i wanted propaganda i would be living in Korea so please, do us all a favour and bring some reasonable argument or piss off back to Hillsong or whatever other Church it is you go to for your weekly indoctrination.

 

[wheredanton]

http://tellmyabortionstory.com/subpage62.html

My abortion happened 17 years ago. I was dating a guy that I loved very much. We were in an on again, off again relationship for 4 years. Just before my abortion, we had a fight and broke up – for good. A couple weeks later, I found out that I was pregnant. When I told him that I was pregnant, he said that he wanted me to have an abortion because he didn’t think I would be a good mother. Also, he said I was a big baby and challenged me to finally be a woman. I really never thought he would want me to go through with it. I found out that he was dealing drugs and I wanted him out of my life, so I chose to follow through with his plan. He paid for my abortion with his drug money.

The night before my abortion, I couldn’t sleep. I was lying alone in bed with my own thoughts, and I knew what I was about to do was very wrong. Two years earlier, I had gone through the same situation, but decided to carry that pregnancy to term. Abortion was never even a consideration to me. But now that I had a 2 year old son, I didn’t want others to think I made the same mistake…again. The only people who knew I was pregnant were my mom and sister. When I woke up that morning, I called my sister and told her that I thought I was "miscarrying". I told her I was bleeding and wanted to know if she would watch my son.

After I dropped him off, I went to the abortion clinic. I noticed the picketers, and I wanted to make sure none of them knew me. I drove around the block. None of them looked familiar, so I pulled into the parking lot and went in. The picketers yelled stuff to me, but I felt they didn’t know my situation so they didn’t deserve my time. Once inside, I gave the receptionist a fake name. I felt numb. I filled out paper work, talked to a counselor, talked to a nurse, and tried not to think about what I was doing.

A nurse escorted me into the abortion room. She helped me get ready for the procedure and just asked me vague questions about the weather and if I was going to school. The abortionist came into the room and began my abortion. The nurse was leaning over me and starring into my eyes. After a little while, she asked the doctor "Is something wrong?" He said, "It is trying to get away – I’ve tried three times!" I was shocked!! What he said hit me like a ton of bricks. It is trying to get away! I started to pray and ask God to stop all this from happening – to not let it work – to let it fail – to put His hand in the way of the vacuum. I couldn’t believe what I was doing!!

Seconds later, the abortionist said, "It’s done". He put away his tools and left the room. From that moment on I have REGRETTED MY ABORTION!! I just wanted to run, to die…I was ANGRY! After the nurse left the room, I started to cry. A part of me died in that room. I knew what I did was wrong. The "IT" he was referring to was MY BABY!

As I walked down the steps to leave the place, I just bawled. I remember looking to the sky, wondering what God thought of me. The rest of the day, I laid on the couch. I would look at my son and just cry. I wanted to go back to that place and pull my baby out of the dumpster. If only I could live that day over again. My decision to have an abortion was final. It was over. I couldn’t go back. My mom, who thought I miscarried, encouraged me to name my baby and to write my baby a letter. I named my baby, Baby Chris and I wrote her a letter.

I still have things that make me grieve - like when I go to the dentist and hear the suction machine. My abortion happened two days before Valentines Day, so every February I feel depressed. Baby Chris would have been born in September. By now, she would be 16 years old. I wonder what she would look like. I wonder what her laugh would sound like. I wonder if she would have a boyfriend. On this earth, I will never be able to hold her or kiss her good night. To tell her I am sorry.

I can’t believe that I took the life of an innocent baby to make mine look better.

It's just a woman who chose to have an abortion and then regretted it.

Moral of this story?

1. Pro choice people are evil drug dealers?

2. Some women regret having an abortion?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

if you can prove using any accountable method whatsoever that the foetus is not alive from conception and doesn't have a soul

Please prove using any accountable method whatsoever that you have a soul.

 

[AntiHyper]

I think what religious people calls a "soul" can be summed up as feelings, emotions and personality.

Foetus doesn't have a nervous system, neither can it think up emotions nor personality.