Bible verses often ignored by Christians (1 Viewer)

[SashatheMan]

but if you take some verses non-literally, when does it stop? maybe the whole bible should not be taken literally and there isn't actually a hell.

i think that guys agrees with you.

its stupid to take somethings literatly and others not

 

[yy]

what astonishes me is that not many christians seems to be able to defend their bible, yet they still hold strong faith in it.
christians, come and argue, i want to see your views.

 

[somechick]

for any christian yuo can try to use the old line that muslims like to use" yuo dont understand the context so you wouldnt know"

You clearly have some issues to sort out. In the other thread you were asking for answers, and a lot of muslim brothers and sisters did the best to answer your questions. No-where did we ever dismiss it by saying 'you dont get the context'. Don't make rubbish up like that.
If you have some issues with a religion, go and thoroughly research it, and not just the way it is being practised.

 

[veterandoggy]

for any christian yuo can try to use the old line that muslims like to use" yuo dont understand the context so you wouldnt know"

sasha, you know 100% why we say that. it is because to know what a verse means you need to look at many stuff with it. we have already told you that if you dont look at the reasons of revelation and the adjacent verses you will find it very easy to use single verses to make islam look bad.

and we say that when you give us a single verse to explain

 

[yy]

isn't revelation just someone's dream (or hallucination)?
and what do you need to look at? i found that many adjacent verses don't really explain much

 

[Wilmo]

what astonishes me is that not many christians seems to be able to defend their bible, yet they still hold strong faith in it.
christians, come and argue, i want to see your views.

Hehe... asking why christians havent come online to argue on Christmas Eve

Keep my decrees. Do not mate different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. (Letivicus 19:19)

Mating two different kinds of animals and planting two kinds of seed in a field are things i dont think you'll find christians doing (you might though). The clothing i'm wearing right now = Cotton AND polyesther

The whole point of this "clothing law" was to make Israel, God's people, stand out from the rest of the nations. They may look plain in there monomaterial clothing compared to some of the other cultures where people dressed in many different materials of many different colours, but they would stand out.

God wants his people to not fit into this world, they must be set apart for him in everything, be it farming, clothing or the things that they do.

His will behind this has not changed. His will for his people is their sanctification (being set apart for him). The reason Christians do not wear a paticular "uniform" to distinguish them is because in the end it is not the clothing that makes you holy, it is the Holy Spirit that does.

The bible says Christians are clothed in Christ. And only in christ. That is the more literal meaning for us today of this decree. To be holy we must be clothed in Christ and Christ alone.

Of all the creatures living in the water of the seas and the streams, you may eat any that have fins and scales. But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales—whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water—you are to detest. And since you are to detest them, you must not eat their meat and you must detest their carcasses. Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be detestable to you. (Letivicus 11:9-12)

Gosh... When i was in Japan i ate eel :O

The best way i can show the christian stand point on this is to quote a bit from acts where Peter (an apostle who was still devout to the Jewish ways) gets a vision from God.

Acts 10:11-16 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."

"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

Jewish people did not associate with non-Jews. They were considered dirty and unclean. Just like all the animals in this vision. This vision was to show Peter God can make anything clean that he wants to.

Another quote from Paul says "Whatever you do, wheter you eat or drink, do it all for the glory of God". Therefore it doesn't matter what you eat as a christian, it matters what you do with what you eat.

BUT if my eating these food causes you to think that I don't love God and respect his commands as much as I do, I will not eat them. I would rather go without then to have you think that I do not respect God's word.

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

The second last sentence shows the reasoning behind this. "You must purge the evil from among you." It sounds harsh but it is necessary. It was a law designed to show the seriousness of someone who is called to be sanctified not living that way.

Everyone is looked up to by somebody else, even if they don't realise it. So if one of God's people is not living how God requires, at least one other person is looking up to them. That is a very dangerous situation which must be dealt with.

Notice that discipline is the first action, not stoning him straight away. It is dealt with personally (and lovingly because you discipline those you love). But when the person doesnt listen it is brought before the elders. If he still doesnt repent, he is brought before the punishment of the town.

That's pretty much how it is supposed to work in christian churches. If there is a dispute (a big important one like a leader teaching things that arent in the bible), you bring it up with the other person rebuking them in love. If they dont listen, you bring it before the elders in the church for them to rebuke also, and if they still dont listen then their punishment is excommunication from the church.

Excommunication is described as "handing the person over to Satan". It's like removing a coal from the fire, it will go cold very quickly! This is pretty much stoning them spiritually. The reason for this is to show the person the seriousness of their actions on God's people and for them to repent.

But this is not how it works really. It seems that if somebody believes something that is wrong, rather than listening to the rebuke they start their own church. Thus opening the christian church to more ridicule.

That's why punishment for this kind of thing is important, and hence this law is still important (just spiritually instead of physically).

women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

Are women not allowed to do anything in christian churches? Is Paul saying women cant be used by God? NO!

Just a couple of chapters earlier Paul gave women instructions for when they pray or prophesy that they must have their head covered. Prophesy is a gift of the Spirit and therefore shows that God uses women too.

So why not allow women to talk? There are a couple of reasons. I dont know if you've ever been to a greek orthadox church, but if you heard some of the women there you would understand. They're very good at spreading gossip and rumours. There is so much backstabbing that goes on. That does not bring glory to God. Hence why if they need to know anything they should ask their husbands at home.

Also there were many false teachers who preyed on young women and widows. By not allowing women to speak in church, it was severing the ability of these false teachers to attract followers from the church. It also prevented them from spreading their falicies.

Another reason would also have been because of the culture that existed at the time. In those days all women were not really allowed to speak. So if an outsider were to come into church and see all these women talking he would not say "Wow... these women are excercising their freedom in Christ to talk to each other!" he would say "Ha! These Christians cant even control their own women!"

So this verse still can be taken literally today in that if women are going to gossip or be mislead by false teachers, then they should not speak. But because all women are allowed to speak these days, it would not be so damaging for an outsider to come and see women talking.

For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. (Exodus 35:2)

I'll quote a bit about what Paul said to the Romans.

Romans 14:5-8 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

Some people say that one day should be the Sabbath, a day where you rest in the Lord. Other people say that you should rest in the Lord every day. But Paul is saying that it doesnt matter because either way they are doing it for God!

Personally, I dont work on Sundays (just because it works out to be the one day I get off a week). But I'm more inclined to be the person who considers everyday as holy. The main point of the Sabbath is not that you dont do any work, but that you take time out to enjoy God and his blessings.

That's why the Law says that the person who does not keep the Sabbath must be put to death. A person who claims to be of God but does not take time out to spend it with God is spiritually dead. To be a christian you must engage in a relationship with God, if you do not you are DEAD!

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. (1 Timothy 2:11-12)

The best way i can begin this is that submission is not a bad thing if you understand it. There are some obvious differences between men and women. The controversial thing I will say is that men and women were not created equal! :O

What i mean by that is not that men are better than women or women are better than men. But we werent created to be exactly the same. There are things that men can do that women cant, and vice versa.

The bible tells us that men are the head of the family, just as Christ is head of the church. The wife submits to the husband just as the church submits to Christ. When it works out, this is the most beautiful relationships ever.

Basically Paul does not allow women to have authority over men because they were not created to have authority over men. They were created to submit. But when you know how much God loves his people and that he only has their best interests in his heart, you see that submission is not a bad thing!

When you submit to someone who loves you and wants to do what's best for you, then you are not giving up your right to be treated properly. You are giving up your right to yourself trusting that the other person has your best interests in their heart.

This command doesnt mean that women should think they are inferior to men in anyway! It means that they must understand that God has given them a different role, and that they can trust their Brother in Christ is going to love them and look out for them

And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. (Revelation 14:3)

I don't know heaps about this... but numbers in prophecy books are usually very symbolic. I assume you've read chapter seven where it explains who the 144 000 are.

Revelation 7:4-8 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

That says the 144,000 were from Israel... the next bit in chapter 7 talks about the great multitude as well. So there's a couple of ways you can read into 14:3.

Either 144,000 is the number of all the people saved, or 144,000 is the number of all the people saved from Israel and the great multitude is all the people who were saved. I'd be more inclined to believe the latter, and that only those redeemed from Israel can sing the new song.

But as i said i don't know heaps on this subject and it's one of those things we'll all have to wait and see.

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)

This is one of those times where the english language doesnt really convey the correct meaning of the word. The word Jesus uses for "hate" does not mean hate as we know it. It means that you "like something less".

What Jesus is saying is that anyone who loves his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters and even themselves more than they love God cannot be a disciple of his. To be a Christian you must love God more than you love anything else in this life.

It is the essence of Christianity and therefore should be taken literaly

Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deuteronomy 19:21)

When Phuar said that Christians don't follow the Old Testament, it was not really true. The OT is an important part of what we believe. BUT we follow the teachings of Jesus rather than that of the Law because Jesus came to "fulfil the Law."

This is what he said about this eye for an eye stuff:

Matthew 5:38-42 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Rather than seeking revenge on your adversary, God's desire is that his people would love their enemies. To live in a way that it is impossible for humans to live and to love in a way that only God can love.

Jesus came to show that the point of the Law was not to say "This is what God wants, if you do it right then you are good enough." but to show people they cannot live a life pleasing to God. You can follow most of the Law, but your heart when doing it is not the heart of God. You need something more than yourself!

So Christians do not live according to the law of an eye for an eye because we need to live according Jesus command to love our enemies.

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. (Exodus 21:20-21)

I don't get what you are trying to say. Is this a comment to show the bible doesnt condemn slavery? Or that Christians dont get punished for beating people? I'll wait to see what you mean before i reply.

The LORD said to Moses, "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. (Leviticus 21:16-20)

This was a commandment to the family of Aaron. He was a Levite. And only the Levites could be priest (or God's representatives on earth). As such they could not be consider "unclean".

These Levites would not have been welcomed as priests by the other Israelites because they thought that people with defects were born that way because their parents were sinful and they were being punished. Outsiders would not respect God as being perfect if his representatives were not "normal".

It may seem harsh, but this law was to protect the integrity of the word of God. And just because these people could not be priests did not mean they couldn't worship God! They werent forbidden from being God's people! They just could not be priests.

While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)

I've already explained this a bit... so i'll just say that the Israelites had to live according to the law. They had one day a week devoted entirely to God. This person had 6 other days that week to gather wood. But instead on the Sabbath he was thinking "How will I keep my family warm tonight? I must provide for them!"

The whole point of the Sabbath was to reflect on God and do nothing for yourself. If the man had reflected on all the things God had done for the Israelites in the desert, he would have known that God is more than sufficient at providing for his people.

He was made an example of to show the people of Israel that the Sabbath, resting in the Lord, is important.

But Christians don't live according to that anymore. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, and the point of it is not to do no work, but to rest in the Lord!




Hopefully that explains a little bit

If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

I thought that was a pretty funny verse when I read it

 

[yy]

i think you explained most things quite well. i can see your reasonings behind the fish one, "hate" your parents one and eye for an eye.

however, i still have some problems with the rest. for the clothes 1, aren't all christians suppose to follow the words of the bible? and i can't really see how you can justify it otherwise.
and for the stubborn son, i just don't think it's reasonable to expect christians of today to follow that, it's child abuse, and there is no town gate. and the reasons for he being rebellious is prob due to bad parenting anyway. TOO HARSH
i think it's too harsh to make law that says women should be silent just because they tend to gossip, and many churches are not following this verse (as they suppose to). if that's the case, then there should be a curfew on all men owning knives, because they're more violent. and what can men do that women can't do and vice versa? (apart from having children) and to say women to submit to men just like church to christ, IS saying that women are below men, as churches are below christ (sorry, can't put it in a better way, but hopefully you'll get it).
i still don't think people should be killed for working on sabbath!
the slave one: the bible says beating slave is ok, as long as he/she's not dead
i don't see why cripples can't be priests, and i don't see it protect the integrity, just show its discrimination
and also in many instances, god is seen as jealous and revengeful, and sanctioned many killings on others. (e.g. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. - Numbers 31:17-18 AND So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded. - Joshua 10:40)

p.s. my point is not that the things in bible are unfounded, but rather these laws cannot be followed by christians (as they're supposed to do), and as such has no real value in society today.

 

[Wilmo]

For the clothes 1, aren't all christians suppose to follow the words of the bible? and i can't really see how you can justify it otherwise.

I tried to explain it earlier, but i don't think i did it too well. Jesus came from God to fulfil the Law. Not to make the Law obsolete (although he kind of did) but to show what it really meant.

God gave his people all these laws to follow, but his point behind giving them was not to say "You will be justified if you do this". It was to say "Think about the reason why I would tell you to do this and know my heart behind it".

With the clothes thing it is the same. The point behind this law is not to say "You will be saved if you only wear clothes of one material", but to make the people think about why they should do that. The reason is that God wants his people to be different. To find their identity in Him and not in the clothes they wear.

For Christians, our identity is not found in the clothes we wear, it is found in Christ. God doesnt care about how we dress, he cares about how we respond to him.

On a semi-related note... Some Christians have this thing called "anti-fashion". Basically it means they wear things that are really unfashionable to stand out from the rest of the world.

The problem i see with that is that even anti-fashion is a fashion style... and anybody in the world can wear those clothes if they wanted to. I think Christians shouldnt worry to much about how their clothes set them apart because in the end it's not their clothes that make them different.

and for the stubborn son, i just don't think it's reasonable to expect christians of today to follow that, it's child abuse, and there is no town gate. and the reasons for he being rebellious is prob due to bad parenting anyway. TOO HARSH

I think you will find that discipline is different to child abuse. That's a problem with todays culture. Children cannot be disciplined by their parents or a teacher because they can claim child abuse, but i think there's a big difference between the two.

Discipline has the best interest of the child in mind, abuse has the abuser in mind. Discipline is a response of love whereas abuse is a response of malice.

Take the situation where a child breaks a really expensive vase on purpose. An abuser would deal with the child because the vase is broken. It is motivated by the abusers love of the vase. Some who is disciplining the child on the other hand would not care so much about the vase. They would care that the child knows what they did was not right.

The reason the child is like that might be because of bad parenting... that's why it is brought before the elders. The elders are like judges, and they would not be like "This person is bad and must die." They would try to find out what is motivating the person to be rebellious and try to find a way to resolve the issue. Such a harsh punishment is not a first reponse!

A Christian needs to ask what is God's heart behind giving this command? The two greatest comands are this: "Love the Lord your God with all you heart, and with all your mind and with all your strength. And the second is like it - Love your neighbour as yourself."

A rebellious person and a drunkard is disobeying those two commands. They are loving themselves more than they love God and they are not loving the person they are wronging as they love themself. So a person who claims they can be a follower of God while not following these two commandments is decieving themselves and those who look up to them.

Discipline must be taken to show them they are wrong. We are not to abuse them for being sinful because we are no less sinful than they are! But we are to rebuke them in love because we love them and want them to see what they are doing puts their spiritual life in danger.

Another major difference between the Jews and Christians is that the Jewish elders were the judges for the Israelites. They had the power to pronounce punishment to those found breaking the Law.

Christian elders on the other hand are not the final authority. God himself is Judge and will deal with the person appropriately. But the christian elders to have the right to hand down the punishment of excommunication to a member of the church. But once that person is no longer a member of the church, there is no grounds for judgement and God himself is the judge.

So Christians can excercise this verse in the disciplinary stages, but God is the final judge.

i think it's too harsh to make law that says women should be silent just because they tend to gossip, and many churches are not following this verse (as they suppose to). if that's the case, then there should be a curfew on all men owning knives, because they're more violent. and what can men do that women can't do and vice versa? (apart from having children) and to say women to submit to men just like church to christ, IS saying that women are below men, as churches are below christ (sorry, can't put it in a better way, but hopefully you'll get it).

I shouldn't really have used the gossiping as the first example because as you rightly said not all women gossip. But i'll try to explain anyway. It's not a "law" designed to stop women from gossiping. But it does create an environment where gossip cannot happen.

It's like saying "People shouldnt go to casinos". Not everybody has a gambling problem but if nobody is placed in an environment where they can gamble, their problem wont be fed. Rather than going to a casino and saying people with a problem cant come, it's better not to go so that everyone can come.

Likewise with the knives. Not every man would stab someone if he had a knife. But some men might. So it is better for all men not to have knives rather than create an environment where only some people arent allowed to have them.

Men physically and mentally different to women. My point was not to say "men can do this but women cant". I was trying to say that we are not the same and therefore shouldnt strive to be. We have different abilities so that when a man and a woman work together they can accomplish more than two men or two women.

And that sort of leads on to the next point. The church is an extention of Christ just as the woman is an extention of the man. A head is not much without a body, and a body is not much with out a head.

The body of Christ is not less than the head of Christ and the woman is not less than the man. But when the head and the body work together they do what a whole person can do. Submission in this case is when the head says "I will go this way", the body goes that way too.

It is important for the head and the body to work together for the person to function. Both of them are important

i still don't think people should be killed for working on sabbath!

Again, lets look at God's heart behind the Sabbath. It was not that people should die for not taking time off work! He wanted to show his people that it was über important to take time out to rest in him and not in themselves. If they do not, they will die spiritually!

This law is harsh and the punishment harsh, but it was to show God's people the seriousness of not taking time to get to know him. And that is something that is still relevent today.

the slave one: the bible says beating slave is ok, as long as he/she's not dead

This is kind of like the discipline thing. A rebellious slave must be made an example of or else others may follow his example. But if the slave dies you must be punished because you have killed a person.

Ideally this situation would never arise! People were supposed to take care of their slaves.

The Christian position on this is that we are to consider ourselves God's slaves and so we too have a Master. So we should therefore treat our slaves as we ourselves are treated by God. That is, with much love and patience, and to discipline them like wise.

i don't see why cripples can't be priests, and i don't see it protect the integrity, just show its discrimination

It was not God's discrimination that would not allow people with defects to be priests. For that person would be a child of God no matter what. It was the discrimination of God's imperfect people and of the people who came from outside of Israel that meant they would not be accepted.

Cripples would have been no less capable of serving God, but if it created a barrier in someone elses heart, the priest would not be an effective representative (through no fault of his own).

It's like i said with the eating thing. If what I eat stops someone from thinking that I love God as much as I do, i wont eat it anymore. And if having a crippled priest prevents someone from knowing God, then the person would not want to be a priest.

and also in many instances, god is seen as jealous and revengeful, and sanctioned many killings on others. (e.g. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. - Numbers 31:17-18 AND So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded. - Joshua 10:40)

So the question is where do Christians stand on God being jelous and revengeful? Because in the New Testament he seems so loving and forgiving?

p.s. my point is not that the things in bible are unfounded, but rather these laws cannot be followed by christians (as they're supposed to do), and as such has no real value in society today.

That's cool. My point is that these laws are to show us that we fall far short of God's standards and that we cant please him ourselves. But as a Christian, God lives in me and therefore I should make every effort to live in a way that glorifies him.

So i dont think the Law is relevent, but God's desire for his people that he gave the Law is unchanged

 

[yy]

wow, you're like the first person who actually explained things. and i thank you for it.

however, you seems to emphasise a lot on god's intension. but we can never truly know what his intention is apart from what's written there. i guess that's where most schisms occur. because if we take everything literally, then it's quite impossible to achieve. yet if we don't, then when do we cut the lines (as i have said before). for example, church condemns homosexuality, yet seems to ignore other rules that are also written in the bible.

 

[Wilmo]

I believe it is possible to know God's intentions. Unlike other religions, Christians are not left on their own to discover the will of God. We are given the Holy Spirit as a deposit guarenteeing our inheritance of eternal life.

This means that God himself makes his home in us. The bible says that the Holy Spirit is like a counsellor and intercessor by whom God reveals himself to us. So when christians reads the bible, it is not them interpreting what they read but God himself revealing it to us.

I think thats an awesome thing. Upon a surface reading, God can reveal stuff to us by his Spirit. And what is on the surface is all we need to know. But if we dive deeper into his Word, his Spirit can reveal even deeper truths. I can spend my whole life studying the bible and never reach a point where I can say "I know everything".

But yeah, my point is that Christians can know God's intentions because God himself lives in us. We are not left to our own understanding

 

[Xayma]

Are women not allowed to do anything in christian churches? Is Paul saying women cant be used by God? NO!

Just a couple of chapters earlier Paul gave women instructions for when they pray or prophesy that they must have their head covered. Prophesy is a gift of the Spirit and therefore shows that God uses women too.

So why not allow women to talk? There are a couple of reasons. I dont know if you've ever been to a greek orthadox church, but if you heard some of the women there you would understand. They're very good at spreading gossip and rumours. There is so much backstabbing that goes on. That does not bring glory to God. Hence why if they need to know anything they should ask their husbands at home.

Also there were many false teachers who preyed on young women and widows. By not allowing women to speak in church, it was severing the ability of these false teachers to attract followers from the church. It also prevented them from spreading their falicies.

Another reason would also have been because of the culture that existed at the time. In those days all women were not really allowed to speak. So if an outsider were to come into church and see all these women talking he would not say "Wow... these women are excercising their freedom in Christ to talk to each other!" he would say "Ha! These Christians cant even control their own women!"

So this verse still can be taken literally today in that if women are going to gossip or be mislead by false teachers, then they should not speak. But because all women are allowed to speak these days, it would not be so damaging for an outsider to come and see women talking.

Actually taking it literally would be they should not speak at all. Also it is a bet sexist, and your reasoning is flawed. Women gossiping is the reason they weren't allowed to speak, bullshit, men gossip just as much and have for ages.

But since God is omnipotent if it's ok for women to speak today why doesn't He update the bible.

 

[yy]

if the holy spirit guides every christians, then there shouldn't so many denominations (and LRA) and conflicts between them. and everyone is convinced that their interpretations is right...

 

[yy]

But since God is omnipotent if it's ok for women to speak today why doesn't He update the bible.

because he's NOT omnipotent (the omnipotent paradox)

 

[Sonic]

But since God is omnipotent if it's ok for women to speak today why doesn't He update the bible.

ok from a muslim perspective... muhammed was the last messanger so how can GOD change the bible??

 

[Wilmo]

Actually taking it literally would be they should not speak at all. Also it is a bet sexist, and your reasoning is flawed. Women gossiping is the reason they weren't allowed to speak, bullshit, men gossip just as much and have for ages.

Notice how not gossiping wasnt the only reason i gave for not talking. And I know men are just as bad at gossiping. Elsewhere all Christians are told to rid themselves of slander (gossiping) and not to be busy bodies.

If men are prone to gossiping they should not speak at all. Like the saying goes, if you dont have anything nice to say dont say it at all.

But since God is omnipotent if it's ok for women to speak today why doesn't He update the bible.

Because it doesnt need to be updated. The reasoning behind Paul saying what he said is unchanged.

if the holy spirit guides every christians, then there shouldn't so many denominations (and LRA) and conflicts between them. and everyone is convinced that their interpretations is right...

Now this is hard... I'll explain it how it has been explained to me:

There are two types of issues in the Christianity. Rod issues and reed issues. Rod issues are those which are necessary for salvation, and reed issues which arent really essential to believe exactly the same.

The rod issues are things like Jesus being the Son of God and that his sacrifice is the only way we can be saved. The reed issues are things like predestination and spiritual gifts and the like.

All Christians who confess that Christ is Lord and believe in their heart that he has been raised recieve the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit confirms the essentials which is like the surface stuff from the bible that i was talking about.

But there are three levels where the Holy Spirit can work in peoples lives. There's the intellectual, the emotional and the deeds.

Imagine a triangle with one of these three things in each corner.
-----^
----/I\ --------- Where I = Intellectual E= Emotional and D = Deeds
---/E D\

The intellectual, which I find is more where the Spirit works in me, is when the Holy Spirit reveals deeper insight into the bible and God's will for our lives. The problem is head knowledge can just be in the head.

Anglicans and other protestant churches are usually more based on head knowledge. Because of that they seek more insight from the Holy Spirit in this Area.

The emotional, which is more in line with the Charismatic churches, is where the Holy Spirit gives people a deep emotional revelation of God's presence. The problem with this is that it tends to be more of a personal thing when church is designed for community.

Hillsongs and the other "happy clappy" churches are more likely to seek God more emotionally.

And the next is the deeds. This is where the Holy Spirit spurs God's people into action. To translate faith into deeds. The problem with looking out all the time is that it can become possible to neglect your personal spiritual needs.

Salvation Army and other churches like that tend to be found in the deeds corner.


True Christianity is found in the center of that triangle. Where what we know of God gets translated into "feeling" his presence in our lives which translates into our deeds to show other people our God.

There are different denominations because we like our own little corners (which are fine for salvation). There are "fights" between the denominations because we all think our own corner is correct. Which is true. But we don't realise we are supposed to meet in the center and not in the corners.

That is the problem with sinful people organising Christians. BUT in heaven there will be no more sin and everything will work how God intended.

Sorry if that explaination was confusing

 

[acmilan]

I think before any argument, on either side, takes place on what is said in the bible, we must remember a few things:

1. Christians dont claim the bible to be direct word of God, and what i mean by that is God himself did not send down the words in the bible and it was contributed to by many authors. edit: i guess its hard to explain what i mean, because one would argue God is inspiring the words of those who write it.
2. The bible has a number of literary forms, including song, poems, myths, parables. Unfortunately many of the quotes 'against' are stated without knowledge of what type of form its in (more so in the case of parables)
3. Not all Christians follow the literal word of the bible. Following on from that, some denominations (catholics specifically) believe in what is known as 'natural law', which is something i believe anyone arguing on either side should know and read about.
4. As pwar said, the new testament is of greater importance to christians, as it is believed Jesus came to perfect the old with his new covenant. This doesnt mean the old testament isnt of importance, however you'll find the majority of the 'ignored' verses come from there.

 

[fnkychk]

Actually taking it literally would be they should not speak at all. Also it is a bet sexist, and your reasoning is flawed. Women gossiping is the reason they weren't allowed to speak, bullshit, men gossip just as much and have for ages.

But since God is omnipotent if it's ok for women to speak today why doesn't He update the bible.

Yes, finally some real logic.

Basically Paul does not allow women to have authority over men because they were not created to have authority over men. They were created to submit

This is how you feel about women? You know the will of 'God', and that is to have one half of the population to be submissive to the other half? The whole women being less than men thing only began because we are physically weaker, and strength used to be important back in the day when people actually slaughtered their own cows or whatever.

Religion is nothing but a cult that people join to make them feel safe in a cruel world. It drives me crazy that people fight and die for this crap.

 

[yy]

It drives me crazy that people fight and die for this crap.

i think it's funny. and you got to look at the bright side of things... the world is less overpopulated.

 

[Xayma]

ok from a muslim perspective... muhammed was the last messanger so how can GOD change the bible??

When one is omnipotent there is alot of things that can be done. Given that these instructions are thought to give eternal salvation then you shouldn't be using out of date instructions "ahh sorry guys, you couldve ignored sections 3.1.2 and 6.3.4 but I also added a bit about men not wearing sunglasses inside, now our records show you did, eternal hellfire for you"

 

[Serius]

i don't know if it's the right category to put in. but here it is:

Keep my decrees. Do not mate different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. (Letivicus 19:19)

Of all the creatures living in the water of the seas and the streams, you may eat any that have fins and scales. But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales—whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water—you are to detest. And since you are to detest them, you must not eat their meat and you must detest their carcasses. Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be detestable to you. (Letivicus 11:9-12)

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. (Exodus 35:2)

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. (1 Timothy 2:11-12)

And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. (Revelation 14:3)

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)

Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deuteronomy 19:21)

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. (Exodus 21:20-21)

The LORD said to Moses, "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. (Leviticus 21:16-20)

While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)

most of these are invalid as they are old testament. the whole idea of the new testament is that jesus died on the cross for our sins and so on and so on <insert religious stuff here> basic breakdown means we dont have to follow the laws of the old testament to be free of sin anymore as jesus died for our sins, meaning we should be following the laws of the New Testament... but even if we dont want to, it does not make us a traitor... jesus will take your sins all the same... thats pretty much the arguement ive been taught

for the guy who wanted to know why it is included in the bible... because even if it is no longer relevant, it is still an interesting read and can be a valuable historical source... why do we keep documentation on how Athenian law courts worked? they are totaly out dated and long since replaced. because it is is interesting, and the docuements are used as historical sources
the end