Contradiction (3 Viewers)

[anonymous.92]

Not impossible, just much, much harder. And it helps if you're not a woman.

You know, I find that a lot of women have a lot of fun in Eastern countries. You ever been to an Eastern country, to make such an allegation?

 

[JonathanM]

You know, I find that a lot of women have a lot of fun in Eastern countries. You ever been to an Eastern country, to make such an allegation?

I'm not talking about Eastern countries. Western does not refer to the region, noob, but to the culture and heritage which originated from Europe, which was in the 'West.' What is not Western is not aligned with these values, and I was implicitly referring to Arabic/Islamic culture.

Now with that, please enlighten (no pun associated with 'Western' xD) me as to how women who are subjugated from birth to second, no third class citizen/object treatment are to have 'fun'? If so, it is only when not obeying the laws of their country/expectations of their society.

 

[4theHSC]

I'm not talking about Eastern countries. Western does not refer to the region, noob, but to the culture and heritage which originated from Europe, which was in the 'West.' What is not Western is not aligned with these values, and I was implicitly referring to Arabic/Islamic culture.

Now with that, please enlighten (no pun associated with 'Western' xD) me as to how women who are subjugated from birth to second, no third class citizen/object treatment are to have 'fun'? If so, it is only when not obeying the laws of their country/expectations of their society.

Yes it is true, there is no other culture as good as the western culture, its just so free and awesome, wait...

 

[anonymous.92]

I'm not talking about Eastern countries. Western does not refer to the region, noob, but to the culture and heritage which originated from Europe, which was in the 'West.' What is not Western is not aligned with these values, and I was implicitly referring to Arabic/Islamic culture.

Now with that, please enlighten (no pun associated with 'Western' xD) me as to how women who are subjugated from birth to second, no third class citizen/object treatment are to have 'fun'? If so, it is only when not obeying the laws of their country/expectations of their society.

Ok, fine, you weren't talking about Eastern countries. You're talking about Arab/Islamic countries. Even so, the cases you hear of Arab/Muslim women being subjugated in the media are still a minority. When you take into account the sheer number of women living in those countries, you'd find a lot of them lead fulfilling, happy lives.

And you still haven't answered my question. You made a judgement on Arab/Islamic countries, have you ever been to one?

 

[JonathanM]

Yes it is true, there is no other culture as good as the western culture, its just so free and awesome, wait...

No there is not. It's not perfect, but it's the best we have ever had and has room for improvement, unlike the strict boundaries of other cultural systems like Sharia Law or the guise of 'Communism' in China.

Just remember that you're writing that statement from the position of someone living in some of the best conditions, economically, socially, culturally, humanity wise etc. that humanity has ever enjoyed.

But of course, if you think it's bad, I invite you to move the fuck away and go live in Saudi Arabia or someplace else; I'm sure you won't find it too hard not being a woman and all, but you will still probably be put to death or given lashings for logging onto a non government news website or being caught taking cock on a public beach. Not that there's anything wrong with that, in the Western world at least.

 

[JonathanM]

Ok, fine, you weren't talking about Eastern countries. You're talking about Arab/Islamic countries. Even so, the cases you hear of Arab/Muslim women being subjugated in the media are still a minority. When you take into account the sheer number of women living in those countries, you'd find a lot of them lead fulfilling, happy lives.

And you still haven't answered my question. You made a judgement on Arab/Islamic countries, have you ever been to one?

Yes I have visited the Middle-East before. Went to Saudi Arabia, had a bunch of fuckers with sub machine guns line up outside my plane before I got off. Then all the women on the plane had to 'cover up' before getting off.

They are not a minority you idiot, everywhere you go there you see women with not a flash of skin showing apart from a slit where their eyes are walking a few meters behind their husbands. It was disgusting. They're treated as complete objects. Ok, they might be living happy lives, but that would be strictly confined to within their homes; they are restricted from most professions, they can't even be taxi drivers easily, they have no real rights and have the burden of guilt is usually placed upon them. You have no idea what you are talking about, it is not a minority, but the majority in Arab countries.

And what does it matter if I've been there? It can plainly be seen on the internet and news sites.

 

[anonymous.92]

Yes I have visited the Middle-East before. Went to Saudi Arabia, had a bunch of fuckers with sub machine guns line up outside my plane before I got off. Then all the women on the plane had to 'cover up' before getting off.

They are not a minority you idiot, everywhere you go there you see women with not a flash of skin showing apart from a slit where their eyes are walking a few meters behind their husbands. It was disgusting. They're treated as complete objects. Ok, they might be living happy lives, but that would be strictly confined to within their homes; they are restricted from most professions, they can't even be taxi drivers easily, they have no real rights and have the burden of guilt is usually placed upon them. You have no idea what you are talking about, it is not a minority, but the majority in Arab countries.

And what does it matter if I've been there? It can plainly be seen on the internet and news sites.

Oh, Saudi Arabia is different. Many of their laws are completely unnecessary and extreme, such as not allowing women to drive. Barely anyone outside Saudi Arabia agree with their laws. There are a lot of muslim countries outside of Saudi Arabia, where women have a lot of rights. In those countries, women who are subjugated really are a minority.

And yes, it actually does matter whether you have been to a Muslim country, because news sites only report what is news. They wouldn't go around reporting stories such as, "Oh look! That lady is a Muslim! And she looks like she's having so much fun!" That's not news-worthy. At least, by travelling to a muslim country, you'd witness firsthand what life is like for the populace.

 

[JonathanM]

Ok, give me an example. And for the record, if they have improved at all, it is due to a reliance on the Western world, like in Malaysia. But even then, Muslims there are banned from attending bars and concerts.

Syria, Egypt, Hezbollah controlled parts of Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Somalia, Palestine, Sudan even American occupied Afghanistan are all shockers.

I can actually think of one that isn't that bad; Turkey. But that is referred to as a Western nation, and with impending islamification we are seeing many Western values being stripped away.

 

[anonymous.92]

Ok, give me an example. And for the record, if they have improved at all, it is due to a reliance on the Western world, like in Malaysia. But even then, Muslims there are banned from attending bars and concerts.

Syria, Egypt, Hezbollah controlled parts of Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Somalia, Palestine, Sudan even American occupied Afghanistan are all shockers.

I can actually think of one that isn't that bad; Turkey. But that is referred to as a Western nation, and with impending islamification we are seeing many Western values being stripped away.

You misunderstood me. Here, you're saying that Muslims are banned from bars and concerts in places like Malaysia. I never disputed that fact. The issue at hand, from memory, was whether Muslim women in Muslim countries are all subjugated leading miserable lives.

I'm saying the majority don't lead depressing lives, even in many of those countries you listed. You know, bars and concerts aren't the definition of "fun." There's certainly a lot more to life than that.

 

[JonathanM]

You misunderstood me. Here, you're saying that Muslims are banned from bars and concerts in places like Malaysia. I never disputed that fact. The issue at hand, from memory, was whether Muslim women in Muslim countries are all subjugated leading miserable lives.

I'm saying the majority don't lead depressing lives, even in many of those countries you listed. You know, bars and concerts aren't the definition of "fun." There's certainly a lot more to life than that.

You never disputed it because you never brought it up. And we're not talking specifically about women, that is just an example. Most people living in these countries with the exception of a few in the upper classes/ruling hierarchy would be living a second class life in comparison to the rights and liberties enjoyed in the Western world, the Malaysian case where all Muslims regardless of gender being banned from bars and concerts just being one example.

That's like saying someone doesn't really need to go on the internet, they can have fun without it. That's not the point, the point is that if they could their lives would probably improved by it. As long as they keep away from this forum.

People should have the right to choose what they want to do, and just because you can still enjoy life whilst living on your knees doesn't mean you should never have the right to enjoy life standing up. The reality is that people do not have the option to live life to the same extent that they do in Western countries. Here, you can live like a sociopath and be treated like an object if you choose to be, but that is your choice, you are not burdened with this from birth as you are in many Arab and Muslim countries.

 

[banco55]

It's funny how some immigrants talk about how great their home countries are when clearly they wouldn't be living in Australia if their home country was so great.

 

[anonymous.92]

You never disputed it because you never brought it up. And we're not talking specifically about women, that is just an example. Most people living in these countries with the exception of a few in the upper classes/ruling hierarchy would be living a second class life in comparison to the rights and liberties enjoyed in the Western world, the Malaysian case where all Muslims regardless of gender being banned from bars and concerts just being one example.

That's like saying someone doesn't really need to go on the internet, they can have fun without it. That's not the point, the point is that if they could their lives would probably improved by it. As long as they keep away from this forum.

People should have the right to choose what they want to do, and just because you can still enjoy life whilst living on your knees doesn't mean you should never have the right to enjoy life standing up. The reality is that people do not have the option to live life to the same extent that they do in Western countries. Here, you can live like a sociopath and be treated like an object if you choose to be, but that is your choice, you are not burdened with this from birth as you are in many Arab and Muslim countries.

You bring up a good point but what you're saying implies that freedom to do what one wants is proportional to quality of life. The quality of a person's life is determined not by the freedom to enjoy bars and concerts, but simple, elemental things such as familial love and self esteem.

It's true that in many Arab cultures, their options aren't as diverse as what you would find in a Western society but that does not necessarily mean that a Westerner is happier, than say an Arab. Take Maslow's hierarchy of needs as an example. According to that hierarchy, complete free will isn't even a factor in self-actualization. That just goes to show, that an Arab Muslim living in say, Iran, may have attained all the levels in the hierarchy, but a Westerner may not.

 

[Israel No1]

OF course there is a contradiction in the OP. Muslims are hypocrites in their nature. It is what the quran orders. ie hypocrisy.

 

[JonathanM]

You bring up a good point but what you're saying implies that freedom to do what one wants is proportional to quality of life. The quality of a person's life is determined not by the freedom to enjoy bars and concerts, but simple, elemental things such as familial love and self esteem.

It's true that in many Arab cultures, their options aren't as diverse as what you would find in a Western society but that does not necessarily mean that a Westerner is happier, than say an Arab. Take Maslow's hierarchy of needs as an example. According to that hierarchy, complete free will isn't even a factor in self-actualization. That just goes to show, that an Arab Muslim living in say, Iran, may have attained all the levels in the hierarchy, but a Westerner may not.

I'm not saying there is a direct correlation, but I firmly believe that there is more room for happiness in a society where there are more freedoms. Also, and this is quite arbitrary, but what people living in Arab and Muslim countries might see as 'happiness' because they have no clue of what life they could really be living would probably pale in comparison to the happiness a Western person who can achieve that same happiness and more if they choose so.

Maslow's hierarchy is outdated and not properly proofed imo.

Look at it this way, and I'm really going out on a limb here to try to make myself clear to you. A person in an Arab and/or Muslim country can achieve happiness A, B and C whereas a person in a Western country can achieve A, B, C, D, E, F and G. Family values and self esteem (A-C) can be achieved just as, if not more easily in Western society, so why not enjoy other freedoms as well (D-G)

 

[anonymous.92]

I'm not saying there is a direct correlation, but I firmly believe that there is more room for happiness in a society where there are more freedoms. Also, and this is quite arbitrary, but what people living in Arab and Muslim countries might see as 'happiness' because they have no clue of what life they could really be living would probably pale in comparison to the happiness a Western person who can achieve that same happiness and more if they choose so.

Maslow's hierarchy is outdated and not properly proofed imo.

Look at it this way, and I'm really going out on a limb here to try to make myself clear to you. A person in an Arab and/or Muslim country can achieve happiness A, B and C whereas a person in a Western country can achieve A, B, C, D, E, F and G. Family values and self esteem (A-C) can be achieved just as, if not more easily in Western society, so why not enjoy other freedoms as well (D-G)

I completely understand what point you're trying to make. But certain "freedoms" are an ingrained part of Western culture. Usually, when referring to countries overseas, you may find that some people are denied those very same elements of Western culture. Yet within their own culture, they have a variety of other freedoms which may contribute to their overall life satisfaction.

For example, using your logic, a Westerner may have freedoms A-G. A person in another country, depending on which one they live in, may have freedoms A-C, and O-R.

A Western society, in my eyes, is preferential, not for the unlimited number of freedoms and such, but for things such as financial security and relative peace and stability when compared to war-torn countries like Iraq. When one compares a Western society with an Eastern one, you need to realise you are comparing two fundamentally different cultures. You cannot say, one society is by far better than another by just considering one factor, in this case, freedoms, because when determining happiness you need to consider a multitude of factors, not just one.

And to narrow it down further, to make a judgement even more accurate, you would need to consider a person's individual circumstances and not society's circumstances as a whole. When taking into account that many factors that contribute to general happiness and wellbeing, the fact that a person is banned from entering bars and concerts seems pretty minor.

 

[anonymous.92]

That would be because there is a sizeable Muslimic majority in the Lebanese community.

Muslim women suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. It really saddens me that this condition afflicts them in such a malignant manner. However we Westerners (adopted or otherwise) can remedy this problem with our plethora of technological/medical/social breakthroughs. We have the best cure of all - Christianity. Western values stipulate that the taking of Christianity is entirely voluntary though.

I read 'Mao's Last Dancer' a few days ago. The dancer was immersed in communist propaganda throughout the course of his childhood. He loved the beloved Chairman, the benevolent Chairman, the exalted Chairman. Upon spending 6 weeks in the USA he realised the folly of his ways. It took just 6 weeks to overrule 18 years of communist indoctrination. To cut a long story short, he eventually defected to the US and now resides in Melbourne.

After 27 years of Australianism even my dad fucking hates his native Egypt, describing the Muslims as animals who mistreat Christians. The problem of Islam is systemic. Their values are at odds with our values which is why they cannot accept the basic tenets which makes this country great.

For the sake of disclosure, I am not gay. I read the aforementioned book to learn about communist China from an individual perspective. Not because I like dancing and ballet.

Stockholm Syndrome? Uhh... do you even know what that is?

 

[kaz1]

That would be because there is a sizeable Muslimic majority in the Lebanese community.

Muslim women suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. It really saddens me that this condition afflicts them in such a malignant manner. However we Westerners (adopted or otherwise) can remedy this problem with our plethora of technological/medical/social breakthroughs. We have the best cure of all - Christianity. Western values stipulate that the taking of Christianity is entirely voluntary though.

I read 'Mao's Last Dancer' a few days ago. The dancer was immersed in communist propaganda throughout the course of his childhood. He loved the beloved Chairman, the benevolent Chairman, the exalted Chairman. Upon spending 6 weeks in the USA he realised the folly of his ways. It took just 6 weeks to overrule 18 years of communist indoctrination. To cut a long story short, he eventually defected to the US and now resides in Melbourne.

After 27 years of Australianism even my dad fucking hates his native Egypt, describing the Muslims as animals who mistreat Christians. The problem of Islam is systemic. Their values are at odds with our values which is why they cannot accept the basic tenets which makes this country great.

For the sake of disclosure, I am not gay. I read the aforementioned book to learn about communist China from an individual perspective. Not because I like dancing and ballet.

Incorrect, the Lebanese diaspora in Australia is 65% Christian.

 

[0bs3n3]

Stockholm Syndrome? Uhh... do you even know what that is?

How does it not work in this context? Muslim women develop an attachment to their oppressor/captor (husbands).

 

[JonathanM]

I completely understand what point you're trying to make. But certain "freedoms" are an ingrained part of Western culture. Usually, when referring to countries overseas, you may find that some people are denied those very same elements of Western culture. Yet within their own culture, they have a variety of other freedoms which may contribute to their overall life satisfaction.

For example, using your logic, a Westerner may have freedoms A-G. A person in another country, depending on which one they live in, may have freedoms A-C, and O-R.

A Western society, in my eyes, is preferential, not for the unlimited number of freedoms and such, but for things such as financial security and relative peace and stability when compared to war-torn countries like Iraq. When one compares a Western society with an Eastern one, you need to realise you are comparing two fundamentally different cultures. You cannot say, one society is by far better than another by just considering one factor, in this case, freedoms, because when determining happiness you need to consider a multitude of factors, not just one.

And to narrow it down further, to make a judgement even more accurate, you would need to consider a person's individual circumstances and not society's circumstances as a whole. When taking into account that many factors that contribute to general happiness and wellbeing, the fact that a person is banned from entering bars and concerts seems pretty minor.

It is the freedoms of Western society that bring the relative peace and stability. And I think your argument in itself provides a point for why Western society is better; you are saying that Western society is preferable for the peace and stability, not the freedoms, but you're saying this whilst enjoying some of the greatest freedoms mankind has ever experienced. Take that away from you and you'll truly realise how important they are.

 

[RohanZ]

It is the freedoms of Western society that bring the relative peace and stability. And I think your argument in itself provides a point for why Western society is better; you are saying that Western society is preferable for the peace and stability, not the freedoms, but you're saying this whilst enjoying some of the greatest freedoms mankind has ever experienced. Take that away from you and you'll truly realise how important they are.

^ This.

It also needs to be said that women in Arab/Muslim countries are often indoctrinated from a young age to uphold the 'values' of Islam. Which often means a forfeit of many freedoms for the said women.

They're brought up thinking that whatever freedom is offered to them is what will suffice, yet they would not be given the opportunity to indulge in other freedoms enjoyed by women in Western women because they're not true to Islamic or cultural values.
This also applies to many Muslims in general living in the Arab/Muslim states.