Gussy Booo
Mathematics <3
We always remember the bad.
We never remember the good.
We never remember the good.
Wow, way to get lost in your muddled thoughts. This is why dumb people should be barred from studying philosophy, because I believe this boring obscurantism is a crime against human intelligence.To be honest I don't have a definition of god. To me that question is somewhat like asking of Lewis Carroll's Alice - how tall do you think she is, 5"2, 5"5? Sure, I have encountered a number of definitions of god put forward in the history of religious thought (to pick some random categories which are themselves broad: deism, pantheism, polytheism) but for me quibbling over which one is right or best suits me is like discussing what shade we should use between blonde and black to describe Alice's hair.
Compare also, to make the problem less a matter of fiction, a cryptozoologist who asks 'given that there may be an ancient, unobserved beast living at the bottom of the ocean, what do you think it looks like? Black, transluscent, fluorescent, tentacled, scaly? Would it be driven by instinct or intelligence, or guided by universal omniscience?'.
So you think I ought to have a clear, unambiguous description of a divine being I don't believe in whose historical form is typically protean and often contradictory? Argue away.Wow, way to get lost in your muddled thoughts. This is why dumb people should be barred from studying philosophy, because I believe this boring obscurantism is a crime against human intelligence.
Well given your previous posts/comments I don't expect you to have a clear description of anything. I actually don't know what your position is (Atheist, Theist, Deist, etc).......it's just that your arguements are so obscure, muddled and digressive.So you think I ought to have a clear, unambiguous description of a divine being I don't believe in whose historical form is typically protean and often contradictory? Argue away.
Perhaps rightly. My aims in this thread are largely deconstructive. Moreover, I have lately become more sympathetic to metaphor - if language is holistic then stalwart analysis will always be unsatisfying. I <3 ambiguity.Well given your previous posts/comments I don't expect you to have a clear description of anything.
If you think a particular claim is bullshit or confused then you are free to call me on it and I will do my best to explain.I actually don't know what your position is (Atheist, Theist, Deist, etc).......it's just that your arguements are so obscure, muddled and digressive.
Cool man, Good to know.Perhaps rightly. My aims in this thread are largely deconstructive. Moreover, I have lately become more sympathetic to metaphor - if language is holistic then stalwart analysis will always be unsatisfying. I <3 ambiguity.
Ok are you an Athiest, Thiest, Diest, etc?If you think a particular claim is bullshit or confused then you are free to call me on it and I will do my best to explain.
I am neither a diest nor a theist. I am sympathetic to naturalistic forms of pantheism which would look to equate god with the universe, though in such cases I recall 'a rose by any other name...' and so fail to feel that such pantheism has much to offer beyond positing an object of spiritual fulfilment.Ok are you an Athiest, Thiest, Diest, etc?
An Atheist doesn't claim to know that God absolutely doesn't exist. He simply claims that there is no good reason to believe in god. You are an Athiest in regard to Zeus and Baal (are you making 'a claim beyond what is knowable' by not taking these Gods as truth?).I am neither a diest nor a theist. I am sympathetic to naturalistic forms of pantheism which would look to equate god with the universe, though in such cases I recall 'a rose by any other name...' and so fail to feel that such pantheism has much to offer beyond positing an object of spiritual fulfilment.
I tend to prefer the agnostic label as I generally feel that atheism is either too militant or claims too much. For example, I could never assent to the claim "god, in the most general sense possible, does not exist. period." It simply makes a claim beyond what I know, and perhaps even beyond what is knowable.
...Kant?....Why on earth would appreciate such an abhorrent and backwards view? Time to move past the babyish views of the 18th century mate...There are also some sophisticated and oddball conceptions of god that I can appreciate. For example, Immanual Kant's approach to god in the Critique in which he concludes (perhaps despairingly?) that although proof of god exceeds all possible cognition, and is therefore beyond our grasp, the idea of god may play an important regulative role both in structuring the way that we think about self and world, and in leading us towards an ideal moral theory.
Oh no...not good.I relatively odd conception, which I nonetheless find fascinating, would be the kind of god you get in Levinas for whom god is described as infinity, or the farthest limit of Otherness, or the unknowable Other. Levinas is less interested in what can be said positively about god (the unknowable Other) so much as in what such a limiting idea(l) implies in the realm of ethics, meaning and the self-other relation.
?right...The best I can give you, then, is that I am an agnostic who is most open to conceptions of god which deem definition impossible or meaningless, instead using the limit concept of god as a regulative ideal with respect to thought, life and everything in between.
The point is that there is no one conception of god about which we can talk - there is a plurality of conceptions. Sure, I'm a Zeus atheist, but that is just one out of an infinite aray of conceptions of god. Historical gods with a personality and mythology attached are too easy to target - straw men in fact.An Atheist doesn't claim to know that God absolutely doesn't exist. He simply claims that there is no good reason to believe in god. You are an Athiest in regard to Zeus and Baal (are you making 'a claim beyond what is knowable' by not taking these Gods as truth?).
Sorry It's a waste of time arguing against such failed obscurity..The point is that there is no one conception of god about which we can talk - there is a plurality of conceptions. Sure, I'm a Zeus atheist, but that is just one out of an infinite aray of conceptions of god. Historical gods with a personality and mythology attached are too easy to target - straw men in fact.
As to the rest of your post, you are being a really boring troll (calling Kant babyish is not only a 'fail' but betrays a complete lack of understanding). You could at least ask questions or try to make sense of what I'm talking about.
Sorry It's a waste of time arguing against such failed obscurity..
Ew, because someone does a B Arts you think they 'have smarts', I would argue the contray. He admitted that his own view was 'oddball' so I have no idea what you are on about...You think you need to go to Uni (which I am) to come to the conclusion that belief in god is absurd? Sorry appeals to authority aren't as effective on those of us that don't take orders from a master (as self confessed mind slaves as you do).
Oh my... wow... ad infinitum once again proves my point that he is, in fact, a moron...
Kfunk, who If I'm correct is studying Philosophy at UNSW... meaning he probably has smarts... just described his own very valid philosophical viewpoint on the existence of god(s), and you basically called it obscure...
ad infinitum... what expertise do you have in anything? Seriously... have you finished or started a Uni degree at all?
Everything you have posted thus far in this forum has led me to the belief you are in Special Ed classes. You find something negative about everything and you're downright idiot and can not back anything up with valid proofs or sources, now bugger off and let mantello retake his throne as the village idiot.Ew, because someone does a B Arts you think they 'have smarts', I would argue the contray. He admitted that his own view was 'oddball' so I have no idea what you are on about...You think you need to go to Uni (which I am) to come to the conclusion that belief in god is absurd? Sorry appeals to authority aren't as effective on those of us that don't take orders from a master (as self confessed mind slaves as you do).
Not quite - I targeted the views of Levinas as being oddball, though only insofar as they diverge significantly from common lay conceptions of god (his conceptions is more similar to what you would find in parts of the philosophical or theological 'academy'). As to Kant, even the current Pope Ratzinger has made reference to Kant's views as relevant to understanding contemporary debates (even if he ultimately disagrees with him).He admitted that his own view was 'oddball' so I have no idea what you are on about...
Why do you call yourself an Agnostic? Why not embrace your God? The Pope is your teacher and you should fall into his arms and recieve his Grace. Yes Brother, I can see we think alike, but you must do away with tis athiest propganda (evidence/reason???pffft) and embrace the glory of faith.@ Teclis, Mirakon,
I appreciate it but don't bother engaging with ad infinitum's more outrageous claims. He is just a subtle troll.
Not quite - I targeted the views of Levinas as being oddball, though only insofar as they diverge significantly from common lay conceptions of god (his conceptions is more similar to what you would find in parts of the philosophical or theological 'academy'). As to Kant, even the current Pope Ratzinger has made reference to Kant's views as relevant to understanding contemporary debates (even if he ultimately disagrees with him).
There is nothing overtly strange about describing myself as agnostic.
I loled. Hard. With tears.Why do you call yourself an Agnostic? Why not embrace your God? The Pope is your teacher and you should fall into his arms and recieve his Grace. Yes Brother, I can see we think alike, but you must do away with tis athiest propganda (evidence/reason???pffft) and embrace the glory of faith.
This would certainly solve the probability issue but the Oscillating models face a few difficulties which, in my opinion, make them less desirable than the standard big bang model.what about an endless cycle of big bangs / crunches?
The point is not that the Bible has all of the answers if that is what you mean. It's simply that I think the Christian worldview makes more sense of the data before us. Atheism seems to be lacking a sufficient explanation when examining the "fine-tuning" we observe. As a result, I ask, why hold onto it so dearly?also i dont recall hearing about multiverses in the bible, whats your point
But that is exactly the point - "One tweak would have made our existence impossible". The fact that we do exist isn't proof that the laws themselves must be the way the way they are unless you are being circular and first assuming that the laws must be the way they are if we exist.Kwayera said:Perhaps because it's the only way the laws can be. I think the teleological argument begs the question "who made these laws the way they are that somehow allows life?" which is a bit fallacious. I guess what I'm saying is that I think you're addressing this point arse-backwards, obsessing on the outcome (us) and its improbability rather than the fact that the laws are just that - laws, and that's how they are. I really, really don't understand the obsession with chance - it's not like there was any room for variation in these laws, and one tweak would have made our existence impossible. They can't have been tweaked because they just are, improbability or not.BradCube said:Two points on this:
First, Teleological design arguments usually include the laws themselves when assessing the probability of life existing anywhere in the universe. It asks the question "why are the laws themselves the way they are?". For example, why is the gravitational constant the value it is? If the universe did come from nothing and by nothing, then what governs that these laws are the way they are? This means it is not good enough to simply claim that simple laws reduce the improbability of the events occurring because you first have to address the improbability of the laws themselves.
I'm confused now. I explained why in the previous paragraph. The reason you have to show that the combination of all these events is not improbable is because improbability multiplied by improbability creates even larger improbability.Kwayera said:Why?BradCube said:Secondly let's assume for the sake of argument that all the probabilities when taken on their own aren't that unbelievable. Even when doing this, it still doesn't show that the culmination of all those events are "not that unbelievable". For example consider the rolling of a die. Taken in its own, the probability of rolling a six is not that unbelievable but rolling a six, six times in a row is a 1 in 46656 chance. This means that even if you are able to show that events when taken on their own are not that improbable, you still have to show that the combination of all of them is not that improbable.
Boy would I love to play poker with you!Kwayera said:Yeah, its improbable, but governed by the laws of chance, it doesn't mean it could never happen. You don't need a guiding hand or outside influence to get 100 royal flushes in a row, however improbable.BradCube said:Again, this only works if you are presupposing a sort of naturalistic explanation. Flipping back to the poker parody, I could state:
"Personally, I don't get the obsession with the supposed "slight chance" of my getting 100 "royal flushes" in a row, because it clearly wasn't slight enough - I got it didn't I?". One could respond "yes, of course you got it, but I want to know how you got it based on the ridiculously high improbability of it happening by chance alone". The point is that chance alone does not seem to be a satisfactory answer. This is why mutiverse theories which have an eternal past have been put forward.
It's not at all like your example! In the cases we are discussing, we don't have good natural explanations and so then go on to look at supernatural explanations.Kwayera said:But God is never the best explanation because itself assumes something we don't know, can never know, and thus can never prove or understand the mechanism thereof. It's like saying "I don't know how the glass milk was spilt on the floor; I'm going to assume it was fairies rather than my dog and its big swooshy tail".BradCube said:If the above is how you see the god-of-gaps argument, I'm not sure why you have such a problem with it. Essentially from what you have posted I see someone saying "We're not sure how to explain how this happened with our current models. God is currently the best explanation that fits the data and based on this we're proposing that God exists". How is this sort of thing different from any hypothesis (for example proposing the existence of elementary particles such as the higgs boson)? I'm genuinely interested in how you separate these two.
I never said anything about assuming, moving on and hoping for the best!Kwayera said:Re: elementary particles such as the Higgs - well, you're right, we don't know they exist. Mathematically we suspect that they do, but we don't know, and that's why we're trying to find them. We don't just assume, move on, and hope for the best.
So I take it then that you think we will eventually have a theory of "everything"? Even if this were to happen (which I doubt) what should someone do today without a theory of everything?Kwayera said:That assumes there ever will be a point. Taking your example, even now, with our primitive technology, we can see almost all the way to the beginning of the universe. There may be a stage where we reach the limit of the ability to gather knowledge, true, but personally I doubt that, and I will never resort to a supernatural explanation when there is a naturalistic counterpart, because supernatural explanations by their very nature are inadequete.BradCube said:If I was to guess (and so point out if I am incorrect) I would say that you would claim that the only valid hypothesis are those which can be scientifically demonstrated or proven. If that is the case, what happens when we reach the limits of scientific testing? I'm thinking of early stages of the universe or other scenarios where our knowledge bottoms out. What are we supposed to believe today in the cases where science is unable to provide a satisfactory answer and a supernatural explanation fits the data? There seems to be a point at which you're discounting supernatural explanations just on principle.
It seems we are caught in a vicious cycle hereKwayera said:I will cease ignoring supernatural ideas when we see some proof of their existence - which we never will.BradCube said:But clearly you are ignoring some apparently impossible ideas -namely that of the supernatural. You seem to be ignoring these because you assume that natural explanations are the only valid ones. Is that a fair description? If so, I would challenge you to defend this position.
I'm curious as to what you think a sound deductive argument is, if not a proof or evidence of some sort?Kwayera said:Philosophy isn't evidence, and I challenge you to provide scientific data that has had philosophical premises rested unchallenged upon it.BradCube said:Well it depends on what you regard as proof doesn't it? Certainly I don't think we'll have any proof in the mathematical sense. However, I think we can have sound philosophical arguments (whose premises can rely on scientific data) which could give us probability to work with.
Not at all - but don't twist what I was saying. I am simply pointing out that considering only scientific answers may not yield us with the greatest amount of true beliefs possible. I would seek to consider all answers and then believe that which is most plausible (or confess I don't know if none seem plausible).Kwayera said:Would you rather we stopped looking for an answer?BradCube said:What I meant is that if you always assume that the science-of-gaps (the belief that there is always a scientific explanation available that will eventually be found) is the preferable route to take, then it is unfalsifiable in the sense that it assumes that there is a scientific answer even if there isn't one - it will continue to be pushed forward as truth even if there is never a satisfactory scientific answer found.