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Does God Exist? (2 Viewers)

AsyLum

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Being a historian i cannot agree with the Bible as being a basis of 'absolute' truth. It may have been divinely inspired, but the allusions to other various myths within the writing of the Bible tends to suggest otherwise. I think the Bible, like any religion, was the resulting philosophical questioning with which the Ancient Israelites came up with. To move away from a religion that had its basis upon pure myth-and-ritual and charter theory of myth, to one which explored the humanist side of life, with the emphasis on genesis not upon the creation of of the universe, but ultimately as a background, whether you believe it to be purposely 'scientific' or otherwise, to the Exodus from Egypt, that is the first formulative identity of the Israelites.

(note this is for the old testament with emphasis on the Pentateuch)
 

osk

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joujou_84 said:
can i ask......im a muslim...........i believe in jesus, but i dont believe he was god or his son....i believe he was a prophet of god......just wondering, in ur religion do i go to hell?
Yeh....I wont beat around the bush, Christians believe that all who do not believe in jesus as the SON OF GOD and accept Him as saviour go to Hell.......but im sure this is no surprise to you....from what I know....Muslims believe that people who do not obey the Pillars of Islam will go to hell...that including Christians.....am I correct.....plz correct me If i'm wrong......
 

acmilan

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osk said:
Yeh....I wont beat around the bush, Christians believe that all who do not believe in jesus as the SON OF GOD and accept Him as saviour go to Hell.......but im sure this is no surprise to you....from what I know....Muslims believe that people who do not obey the Pillars of Islam will go to hell...that including Christians.....am I correct.....plz correct me If i'm wrong......
I can't agree with that, on either side that you mentioned.
 

AsyLum

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Ignore osk, im not sure if hes taking the piss, but that is not what been set forth as a Christian.
 

osk

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So you're saying Judaism and Islam is not based on what God did for the people?Whats its based on then? Ive studied these three religions in question in depth and i cant remember anything that is not based on God and what He has done, and will do, for the people.
Dnt get me wrong...I believe these religions are definately based on what God can do, yet they are not EXCLUSIVELY based on this. They also involve GOOD WORKS on the part of the believer, therefore attributing part of the salvation to the believer.

Christianity is based solely on what God did for us in Jesus.....without faith in Jesus, we believe no amount of Good Works will save a person.
 
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katie_tully

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You can't prove God exists, because there is no definition of God. You have to define what you're trying to prove. Either way, it works with disproving it. I'd prefer to believe in what I can see and touch, not what seems so far fetched it's like David Lynch created it while high.
 
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katie_tully

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What about buddhists ? Are they going to hell because they dont believe in God?
 

acmilan

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osk said:
osk said:
So you're saying Judaism and Islam is not based on what God did for the people?Whats its based on then? Ive studied these three religions in question in depth and i cant remember anything that is not based on God and what He has done, and will do, for the people.QUOTE]

Dnt get me wrong...I believe these religions are definately based on what God can do, yet they are not EXCLUSIVELY based on this. They also involve GOOD WORKS on the part of the believer, therefore attributing part of the salvation to the believer.

Christianity is based solely on what God did for us in Jesus.....without faith in Jesus, we believe no amount of Good Works will save a person.
Judaism is a classic example of a religion where good works towards the community is essential in living an ethical life. So you're saying these good works are not based on God? The Gemilut Chassidim is the code in Judaism that details the good works that Jews are required to do. It is an attitude, somewhat of thanks to God, that tells that God showed unconditional love to the Jews and it is through this basis that all Jews should replicate God's unconditional love towards fellow men. Hence good works are based on God.
As for Christians, you have the traditional mentality that brought about the split in Christianity that formed protestant denominations, that faith in Jesus alone saves. You cannot base this as a unified Christian view, as the majority of Christians are not protestants and hence do no completely have this view only.
 
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osk

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acmilan said:
Judaism is a classic example of a religion where good works towards the community is essential in living an ethical life. So you're saying these good works are not based on God? The Gemilut Chassidim is the code in Judaism that details the good works that Jews are required to do. It is an attitude, somewhat of thanks to God, that tells that God showed unconditional love to the Jews and it is through this basis that all Jews should replicate God's unconditional love towards fellow men. Hence good works are based on God.
As for Christians, you have the traditional mentality that brought about the split in Christianity that formed protestant denominations, that faith in Jesus alone saves. You cannot base this as a unified Christian view, as the majority of Christians are not protestants and hence do no completely have this view only.
Judaism is unique in that it is the predecessor of Christianity.......this is why the Jewish texts are included int he Bible......from a Christian point of view......God offered salvation by Grace alone because the Jews were utterly incapable of keeping such a set of laws......yes these laws were of God....but we believe God in His love has reveled a way of Salvation which will not fail.
 

joujou_84

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MoonlightSonata said:
Claim:
Every event has a cause. The universe itself had a beginning, so it must have had a First Cause, which must have been a creator God.

Response:
1. The assumption that every event has a cause, although common in our experience, is not necessarily universal. The apparent lack of cause for some events, such as radioactive decay, suggests that there might be exceptions. There are also hypotheses such as alternate dimensions of time or an eternally oscillating universe which allow a universe without a first cause.

2. By definition, a cause comes before an event. If time began with the universe, "before" doesn't even apply to it, and it is logically impossible that the universe be caused.

3. This claim raises the question of what caused God. If, as some claim, God doesn't need a cause, then by the same reasoning, neither does the universe.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Claim:
Cosmologists can't explain where space, time, energy, and the laws of physics came from.

Response:
1. Some questions are harder to answer than others. But although we don't have a full understanding of the origin of the universe, we are not completely in the dark. We know, for example, that space comes from the expansion of the universe. The total energy of the universe may be zero. Cosmologists have hypotheses for the other questions that are consistent with observations [Hawking 2001]. For example, it is possible that there is more than one dimension of time, the other dimension being unbounded, so there is no overall origin of time. Another possibility is that the universe is in an eternal cycle without beginning or end. Each big bang might end in a big crunch to start a new cycle [Steinhardt and Turok 2002] or, at long intervals, our universe collides with a mirror universe, creating the universe anew [Seife 2002].

One should keep in mind that our experiences in everyday life are poor preparation for the extreme and bizarre conditions one encounters in cosmology. The stuff cosmologists deal with is very hard to understand. To reject it because of that, though, would be to retreat into the argument from incredulity.


2. Creationists can't explain origins at all. Saying "God did it" is not an explanation, because it is not tied to any objective evidence. It doesn't rule out any possibility, or even any impossibility. It does not address questions of "how?" and "why?", and it raises questions such as "which God?" and "how did God originate?" In the explaining game, cosmologists are far out in front.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Claim:
The cosmos is fine-tuned to permit human life. If any of several fundamental constants were only slightly different, life would be impossible. (This claim is also known as the weak anthropic principle.)

Response:
1. The claim assumes life in its present form is a given; it applies not to life, but only to life as we know it. The same outcome results if life is fine-tuned to the cosmos.

We don't know what fundamental conditions would rule out any possibility of any life. For all we know, there might be intelligent beings in another universe arguing that if fundamental constants were only slightly different, then the absence of free quarks and the extreme weakness of gravity would make life impossible.

Indeed, many examples of fine-tuning are evidence that life is fine-tuned to the cosmos, not vice versa. This is exactly what evolution proposes.


2. If the universe is fine-tuned for life, why is life such an extremely rare part of it?


3. Many fine-tuning claims are based on numbers being the "same order of magnitude," but this phrase gets stretched beyond its original meaning to buttress design arguments; sometimes numbers more than 1000-fold different are called the same order of magnitude [Klee 2002].

How fine is "fine" anyway? That question can only be answered by a human judgment call, which reduces or removes objective value from the anthropic principle argument.


4. The fine-tuning claim is weakened by the fact that some physical constants are dependent on others, so the anthropic principle may rest on only a very few initial conditions that are really fundamental [Kane et al. 2000]. It is further weakened by the fact that different initial conditions sometimes lead to essentially the same outcomes, as with the initial mass of stars and their formation of heavy metals [Nakamura et al. 1997], or that the tuning may not be very fine, as with the resonance window for helium fusion within the sun [Livio et al. 1999].


5. If part of the universe were not suitable for life, we wouldn't be here to think about it. There is nothing to rule out the possibility of multiple universes, most of which would be unsuitable for life. We happen to find ourselves in one where life is conveniently possible because we can't very well be anywhere else.


6. The anthropic principle is an argument against an omnipotent creator. If God can do anything, He could create life in a universe whose conditions do not allow for it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Claim:
The first law of thermodynamics says matter/energy cannot come from nothing. Therefore, the universe itself could not have formed naturally.

Response:
Formation of the universe from nothing need not violate conservation of energy. The gravitational potential energy of a gravitational field is a negative energy. When all the gravitational potential energy is added to all the other energy in the universe, it might sum to zero [Tryon 1973; Guth 1997, 9-12,271-276].

------------------------------------------------------------------------
hahaha............wen i figure out wat this scientific jargon is saying.........ill reply
 

MoonlightSonata

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AsyLum said:
The people who have criticised the very extent of God's existence and summaringly used the folly of the Bible to justify as such forget one important aspect.

This was a book written in essence, within an Ancient Israelite view of the world, where neither modern science, nor modern philosophical thought had arisen. It is also the culmination of their collective beliefs rather than a solid monolithical ideology purported. In essence the 'creationism' of both God and the universe is unparalleled within its contextual situation, it was one which had no political agenda, no cultic appeal, it rejected the notions of Egypt, Babylon and other Near Eastern ideologies whilst compiling similar myths. It was a philosophical view from the Israelite perspective upon which they viewed the world.

I think many of the people in here, view the faith using merely their modern thinking, and 'logic' without first understanding the very context and historicity of the faith. Think first off, of the purpose, of the origins, why was it that it came to be. Then understand its appeal, its various humanist undertones which have helped it surpass other cultic and pagan religions, in favour of a much more morality based system.

To not believe is ok, to say that God does not exist and ask and question is ok, you have the right as a free-willed human being, ultimately what separates us from the beast is this innate ability to reflect upon practically everything.

What i dont take too kindly to, is this incessant want not to be 'converted' or 'bombarded' with Christian ideals and ideologies, and yet at the same time, this overwhelmingly contradictory stance whereby you bombard us with your attempts at trying to 'deny' and 'disprove' what neither of us can prove. It is an ideology, based upon faith. Some of the greatest minds have queried this very question for centuries, amongst them devout christians, and as such i find it offensive whenever i hear this 'logical' or 'rational' thinking which has led to such a perspective, then leading to the calling of our faith as stupid.

It is ignorance which leads people astray, a mal-information in which many people just fail to realise the two sides of the argument. The churches of the world have begun interrelations, and many find themselves at loggerheads on specifics, but the general theme is there, that there is a goodness in the world, and you dont have to belong to ONE religion to experience or be 'saved.' Inter-faith dialogue has taken leaps and bounds from the strict 'heretic' and 'pagan' views of the former and conservative past. Martin Luther questioned the church upon views which he thought contradictory, and i assure you, that there are people who question the validity of such things within the foundationary christian institutions. But please have a respect and common decency of accepting that our faith, whilst you may not agree with it, is our faith, and that by insulting and coming into an argument with a closed mind leads nowhere.

joujou84: It is expressed not as a sin, nor is it remotely bad, there is an acceptance that God works wonders within different cultures and religions, that there is an innate goodness which stems forth as a result of his creation, and through the various myth-and-ritual concepts that we as humans can work as one to come to a state of homogenous happiness. It doesnt take a Catholic, Islamic, Buddhist, or Hindu to be good to another person, even an Atheist can partake in goodness. So as such, the short answer is no.
Well spoken, and I may take your advice and ignore osk

Now, back to the point of this thread...
 

joujou_84

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osk said:
Yeh....I wont beat around the bush, Christians believe that all who do not believe in jesus as the SON OF GOD and accept Him as saviour go to Hell.......but im sure this is no surprise to you....from what I know....Muslims believe that people who do not obey the Pillars of Islam will go to hell...that including Christians.....am I correct.....plz correct me If i'm wrong......
in islam the greatest sin u can commit is to say god has a son or that god dosent exist..............however it is up to god whether u go to heaven or hell. no one can tell u that ur going to hell just coz ur not a muslim.......god knows wats in ur heart.......generally in the quran it is the people who try to destroy islam that go to hell.......and it says that punishment for the unbelievers is bad.........yet it is prohibited for any one to walk up to someone and say 'hey ur going to hell'. in the end this is gods choice.
 

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joujou_84 said:
in islam the greatest sin u can commit is to say god has a son or that god dosent exist..............however it is up to god whether u go to heaven or hell. no one can tell u that ur going to hell just coz ur not a muslim.......god knows wats in ur heart.......generally in the quran it is the people who try to destroy islam that go to hell.......and it says that punishment for the unbelievers is bad.........yet it is prohibited for any one to walk up to someone and say 'hey ur going to hell'. in the end this is gods choice.
this sounds a bit wiser than presuming to know the will of God
 

joujou_84

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katie_tully said:
You can't prove God exists, because there is no definition of God. You have to define what you're trying to prove. Either way, it works with disproving it. I'd prefer to believe in what I can see and touch, not what seems so far fetched it's like David Lynch created it while high.
but seriously.......if u could see god and touch god and kick god and spit on god etc......would u take this god seriously. would u accept that this 3D object created u. would u become a believer in god?
 

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osk said:
I believe that my religion is the correct one because....it offers an explanation for everything that is happening in this world, and it is the only religion in which salvation is based on what God did for us ie. on the Cross, instead of what we can do to save ourselves.

In the end it is what I believe....just like you might believe that all religions are valid......in the end....you cant conclusively prove ur point of view is 100% true, and neither can I.....it is making sense of that which you are given, and I believe that Christianity makes the most sense of what we see around us. For example....people often wonder, with the increasing violence in this world....what is happening? they get worried and find no rational cause. I find an answer for this in the Bible.....I believe this makes the best sense of it. The Bible even predicts the formation of many new religions and predicts a general turn away from God and to the thought that humans know best......this is exactly what is happening today. From what i see, the Bible makes alotta sense to me!

And dnt presume that the answers you might be given are any more valid......people criticise the Bible because it was written by men (though I believe it is the inspired Word of God)....yet they go and read a book by a scientist and accept it as truth without question.........though I dnt really blame them...after all our public schools, which are meant to be Secular, are in fact fostering Secular Humanism and teaching it to be absolute truth.........people find it ok to label Christians or Muslims or other relgious people as "indoctrinated From birth" but fail to realise they are being just as indoctrinated through the education system.
Ah man... so many fallacies! Where to begin :(
 

joujou_84

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now which christians believe that god is jesus and which believe that jesus is gods son and why does god need a son if god is so powerful?
 

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MoonlightSonata said:
Well spoken, and I may take your advice and ignore osk

Now, back to the point of this thread...

i would just like to post something that i think everyone should read before they comment on the bible, or better yet relate any aspect of anything in this thread to the bible, unless they can give me 101 reasons why this document is false.

two words: please explain
 
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Well if Jesus is god's son then who gave birth to Jebus??? Does God have a wife??? Is he Married??? What if Gods Gay??? How can he have a son then???

P.S. Why does Jesus have to be a shoeless bearded white man with brown hair...why can t he be BLACK!
 

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MoonlightSonata said:
That's all fair enough, everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want (though I don't see how I have to have faith to feel love, fun, etc.)

however the purpose of this thread is to debate whether God exists, and you can understand why faith (belief without evidence) seems out of place in such a discussion

at least you're not like osk, "you'll burn in hell for eternity if you don't accept Jesus"
yes :) everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want. For me, my faith is that God exists, so therefore the answer to the question, personally FOR ME, is yes. Not as a person sitting next to you or I, but as a spiritual high power being.

we can't say that He does not exist, but we can't say that He does exist. But for me, i want Him to exist, so he does, for me :)


i add in the "for me" as i dont want to argue, coz i accept ur beliefs, and i know my beliefs are only for me :)
 

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