Does God Exist? (2 Viewers)

[osk]

I had a theory that he became human etc to "save us all" as in go to heaven etc, (which was said in the bible, but then again I'm sure Moses would've landed a seat in heaven, let alone all other biblical people". As in Jesus underwent suffering, things that happen to humans, temptation etc and ended up prosecuted and died - dealt with pain, to save us all and allowed us to go to heaven because of our journey through life.

Which is quite nice. Read Memnoch the Devil for more lol. By Anne Rice.

The thing I don't understand is the "Why have you foresaken me?" part. Why is he scared? How can he fear death when he knows, the whole time (or most of the time) that he was in fact God or part of God, so thus he had nothing to worry about???

I'm not criticising, I generally ask this all the time. By the way I'm not atheist. I have not the slightest clue what I am.

I absolutely understand ur concern. I will try to explain it as best as possible.

Im sure you know about the Holy Trinity....which means that God is made up of three distinct persons.....God the Father, God the Son...that is Jesus and God the Holy Spirit. these three persons are all 100% God...but have three distinct centres of conciousness...meaning that God can in a way converse with Himslef. This may sound silly...but think about who God is...he is without limits....why is it so ridiculous to think that God could not have multiple centres of conciousness.

In the case of Jesus saying "Why have You forsaken me?"....we witness communication between God the Son and God the Father. Do not ask me the physical process by which all this works...after all......if I could adequately explain all there was to know about God...would he even be God?

Jesus was distressed upon the cross because in His human manifestation, He was both 100% God and 100% man.......this was God's unique way of Bridging the gap that appered between God and man because of sin. Since Jesus was human and taking on the punishment of all the worlds sins....he also voluntarily went through the pain and agony associated with this punishment....yes as God he could have chosen not to do this......but it was done for our benefit

Another example of Jesus identifying with humans is his behaviour at the grave of His friend Lazarus......he wept at the grave despite having every intention of raising Lazarus....this is once again to show that Jesus understands our needs and desires and is not simply a holy entity desiring ot have nothing to do with us.

 

[ur_inner_child]

I absolutely understand ur concern. I will try to explain it as best as possible.

Im sure you know about the Holy Trinity....which means that God is made up of three distinct persons.....God the Father, God the Son...that is Jesus and God the Holy Spirit. these three persons are all 100% God...but have three distinct centres of conciousness...meaning that God can in a way converse with Himslef. This may sound silly...but think about who God is...he is without limits....why is it so ridiculous to think that God could not have multiple centres of conciousness.

In the case of Jesus saying "Why have You forsaken me?"....we witness communication between God the Son and God the Father. Do not ask me the physical process by which all this works...after all......if I could adequately explain all there was to know about God...would he even be God?

Jesus was distressed upon the cross because in His human manifestation, He was both 100% God and 100% man.......this was God's unique way of Bridging the gap that appered between God and man because of sin. Since Jesus was human and taking on the punishment of all the worlds sins....he also voluntarily went through the pain and agony associated with this punishment....yes as God he could have chosen not to do this......but it was done for our benefit

Hmm well put. *reps you* That was a quality answer.


By the way, I suggest the rest of you not deconstruct that post, it was an off tangent topic and I apologise for swaying the conversation.

Carry on

 

[Not-That-Bright]

After reading the last few posts by Asylum i've realised i was totally wrong about him. He's not a religious fanatic, understands what the bible etc. truely is. I definately was reading into what he was saying earlier wrong.

Jesus was distressed upon the cross because in His human manifestation, He was both 100% God and 100% man.......this was God's unique way of Bridging the gap that appered between God and man because of sin. Since Jesus was human and taking on the punishment of all the worlds sins....he also voluntarily went through the pain and agony associated with this punishment....yes as God he could have chosen not to do this......but it was done for our benefit

So god allowed himself to be killed, knowing that it was going to happen only to then ask himself why he had to die when he also knew why he had to die to save us from himself and to die only to live again.

 

[joujou_84]

Sorry, you lost most of your credibility with me with this.

DO none of you read?

DID I NOT POST SAYING THAT IT IS NOT TO BE TAKEN AS A TOTALLY HISTORICALLY ACCURATE AND SCIENTIFICALLY ACCURATE PIECE OF EVIDENCE.

Thank you MoonlightSonata for actually reading my post.

Obviously some of those didnt.

who the hell was talking to u? i was talking to someone else........i am asking them to explain wat they said to me. and if some of u follow a book that is not accurate......then dont bother using this book to prove things

 

[osk]

So god allowed himself to be killed, knowing that it was going to happen only to then ask himself why he had to die when he also knew why he had to die to save us from himself and to die only to live again.

This sounds ridiculous if you see God as a God with a singular centre of conciousness......ie. if you see God as thinking like a human with a single mind........but it is not ridiculous when you realise that God is made up three distinct persons.

 

[AsyLum]

who the hell was talking to u? i was talking to someone else........i am asking them to explain wat they said to me. and if some of u follow a book that is not accurate......then dont bother using this book to prove things

Sorry that was a miscommunication, you posted right after mine.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

What so some parts of god aren't omniscient?
Why does god need to converse with himself, he already knows the result of the conversation.

 

[osk]

What so some parts of god aren't omniscient?
Why does god need to converse with himself, he already knows the result of the conversation.

As I already stated before....the conversing was not for God's benefit, but for the benefit of the humans God was saving.....of course God knew everything that was going to happen.....but He acted in such a way to educate humankind......the "Why have You Forsaken me?" statement was to show the suffering Jesus was going through. Jesus talked with God the Father In a HUMAN style to illustrate the attitude humans should have with God

 

[Not-That-Bright]

so other than that one occurance the trinity doesn't exist?

 

[osk]

so other than that one occurance the trinity doesn't exist?

The trinity does exist, but it has not been revealed to us the process by which the three entities operate.......we do know that the three persons are co equal, co eternal, and in absolute unity....but other than that...it is above our knowlege to define how God operates.

Do u sorta understand where im coming from?

 

[lengstar]

I'm reading 'The Life Of Pi' its about God... kinda.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

oh i see, however there's still some problems...
God is still saving us... from his own wrath?
Why does jesus HAVE to be killed to save us?

 

[osk]

oh i see, however there's still some problems...
God is still saving us... from his own wrath?
Why does jesus HAVE to be killed to save us?

Yes....God is giving us a chance to repent and believe in Jesus as saviour....however.....as your said.....He will at the correct time end this offer and extend His wrath on those who refused Him. We as humans do not know when this time will come...but it could be at anytime.

Jesus HAD to be killed because God said that the the punishment for mankind's sin is death....God initially gave Adam and Eve a choice to follow Him or not...they chose rebellion....and he subsequently introduced the concept of physical death......which had not existed before that.

It is such that Jesus, the blameless substitute for our sins HAD to physically die in order to take on the punishment God had sentenced us sinners with. This is why His resurrection is so important in Christianity...it showed Christ's power over death, His conquering of sin, and his power to raise those who believe in Him.

 

[osk]

This link provides more information on the identity of Jesus than I could ever post here.....u seem interested.......check it out.....even if ur just doing it to learn more about another religion

http://www.christiananswers.net/jesus/home.html

 

[joujou_84]

Jesus HAD to be killed because God said that the the punishment for mankind's sin is death....God initially gave Adam and Eve a choice to follow Him or not...they chose rebellion....and he subsequently introduced the concept of physical death......which had not existed before that.

It is such that Jesus, the blameless substitute for our sins HAD to physically die in order to take on the punishment God had sentenced us sinners with. This is why His resurrection is so important in Christianity...it showed Christ's power over death, His conquering of sin, and his power to raise those who believe in Him.

but y should u rely on someone to die for ur sins..........y cant everyone be responsible for his or her own sins..............? actually didnt god already know that adam and eve were going to eat from the tree when he created them?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Why doesn't god just not kill him, free us from sin on his own?

you say he HAD to physically die but i don't see a logical reason about it... i mean i read all that thing and it still doesn't make sense that god would have to kill himself to save us from himself.

God had to take the punishment that god had given to us?

Why does god need to do this? has he made a mistake, how could an omnipotent, omniscient god make a mistake! this happens often in the bible...
For instance first telling adam and eve not to eat from the tree, when he knew they would, then after they eat from that tree he puts a guard on the tree of immortality obviously god WANTED us to be sinners?

 

[osk]

but y should u rely on someone to die for ur sins..........y cant everyone be responsible for his or her own sins..............? actually didnt god already know that adam and eve were going to eat from the tree when he created them?

This "someone" we rely on is God himself, not just anyone. Yes, we believe that God does Hold us responsible for our sins...but being a loving God....he offers us a way out too, a way out which we do not in the least deserve...but which God offered anyway because of His undying love.

yes, God did know of Adam and Eve's sin before he created them.....but we must acknowledge that God did not make them sin....this was prompted by Satan.

You might ask then....why would God create creatures with a capacity to rebel against Him?......I believe the answer is that God desired His creation to love Him back because of choice, and not just be a group of robots who were obligated to love obey Him. What satisfaction would God have in creations that HAD to obey Him?

id love to hear what you...as a Muslim...believe abaout the origins of sin and the corresponding matters in Islam......

 

[Not-That-Bright]

so instead it's they HAVE to obey him or die? he gets more satisfaction in being a nazi-like dictator? What possible satisfaction could an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient god get from ANYTHING.

Satan was able to pull one up over god?

 

[osk]

you say he HAD to physically die but i don't see a logical reason about it... i mean i read all that thing and it still doesn't make sense that god would have to kill himself to save us from himself.

God had to take the punishment that god had given to us?

QUOTE]


I already told you the reason why God had to physically die.....fair enough...you dnt agree with it........but I ask you......If God had not died and simply lifted our sins, we would know nothing about it....we would continue to live our normal lives.......God offered salvation by execution of Jesus Christ so that we, as humans....with our finite minds would have something tanglible as evidence for this salvation.....he chose to come to earth to set an example for us......yes I do believe since He is God....he could have offered salvation some other way....but we must look at what he HAS done and not question...."well i think he could have done it a better way.."

"God had to take the punishment that god had given to us?"

You are 100% correct that God did take the punishment he set for us......but first of all He did NOT HAVE to take it....but rather CHOSE to take it out of love. And secondly.....Jesus' actions on the cross do not automatically save us....we must choose to accept Him first.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

so he first chose to give us punishment, then chose to take it however he knew that eventually he would take it away...?
- Why didn't he do it from the beginning?
- I can think of much grander ways to offer us salvation, perhaps give us a text that seem more precise, accurate? more like a biology/science textbook than something that is entirely subjective?
- If i can think of a better way, and i'm not omnipotent or omniscient then he can't be omnipotent or omniscient, unless you're saying there was no better way and what he did was perfect.