Euthanasia (2 Viewers)

[Not-That-Bright]

Re: Should euthanasia be legalised?

When a patient nears death they are usually given enough morphine for it to be considered Euthanasia.

This is a good point.

Anyway, again, I'm pretty pro-euthanasia. I'm just a worried little cookie. Legalising it must mean it needs a lot of precautions thrown in.

I agree and I think it's right to be worried with these sort of decisions.

 

[dieburndie]

Re: Should euthanasia be legalised?

IF (I say this because I don't know) morphine overdose is like a paracetamol overdose this is hardly a painless way to die (ironiy asside)

If you don't know then why are you bringing it up.
Not to mention that it is trivial anyway. It's not as if there is a lack of variety in drugs that can kill people.

 

[xxJTxx]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

i say..no. shouldn't be legalised. who would draft all the legislation and include all the circumstances for it to be allowed? then who would carry out the actual action? i dunno. i think maybe people in such dire situations might have the "right" to just end their life...but so much scruitny surrounds the idea. is it even feasibile? if one is a vegetable with no way of communicating, how would you know they would want to die? sure assumption could be made, but that could have a huge emotional bearing on a person making such a decision.

i dunno. does anyone else see that whole situation when they can be unplugged from life support as euthenasia? i know it isnt. and it doesnt fall under the category. but isnt it kinda the same thing?

 

[Serius]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

Hah reminds me of that euthanasia advocate they had in the UK awhile ago, the woman had terminal cancer and was in so much 'pain' and wanted to end her life with 'dignity' but then she recovered lol. I was all like " you dumb bitch! if you had your way you would be dead now, instead of enjoying the gift of life"

Let me lay it out. Nothing has ever suggested you have a right to die painlessly. Infact the vast, vast majority in the entire sum of humanity peole have died in pain and usually a lot of it. be thankful you are alive and in a country where if you get terminally ill most of that pain can be alleviated.

Likewise, nobody has ever said you have the right to die with 'dignity'. Thats basically a massive assumption. I am not sure who said it, but nobody has ever died with dignity, its always unpleasant and wrong, then you might void your bowels and after a while your body starts decomposing. There is nothing dignified about death.

Choose death if you want, be the fool who throws away the last of their days see if i care. Just dont ask us to condone it and legitimise it by passing euthanasia laws. If you want to be a dumbass, you can do it illegally and your loved ones or whoever helped you can pay the consequences for your selfishness [ not like they arent paying enough allready]

The way i see it, murder isnt a crime against the individual, they are dead so what do they care? no, its a crime against those who will miss them and those who were supposed to spend their lives with them. Their future wife, future children all of that wont come to pass. Suicide and assisted suicide is the same shit. I dont care if they only have 1 week to live, fuck many people would have GLADLY taken the gift of knowing when they will die, it gives you a chance to sort out your affairs and prepare yourself for it.

Everybody dies, theres no reason to be in a hurry about it.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

Hah reminds me of that euthanasia advocate they had in the UK awhile ago, the woman had terminal cancer and was in so much 'pain' and wanted to end her life with 'dignity' but then she recovered lol.

Well of course this should only be extended to truly terminal diseases...

Let me lay it out. Nothing has ever suggested you have a right to die painlessly.

What suggests we have any right? We decide what our rights are collectively, one of the rights alot of us have decided is paramount is that of personal freedom. I'd argue this is just an extension of that right and not some completely new one.

Infact the vast, vast majority in the entire sum of humanity peole have died in pain and usually a lot of it.

The vast, vast majority of humanity has lived under oppression with extremely limited freedoms. I think you should rethink your argument here.

I am not sure who said it, but nobody has ever died with dignity, its always unpleasant and wrong, then you might void your bowels and after a while your body starts decomposing. There is nothing dignified about death.

Is it always equally unpleasant and wrong?

Choose death if you want, be the fool who throws away the last of their days see if i care.

So you can't imagine any situation in which death would be more mercyful than a life of pain? Wow.

Just dont ask us to condone it and legitimise it by passing euthanasia laws.

You don't have to condone it as a general practice, just condone that people have the right to do what they want with their bodies.

If you want to be a dumbass, you can do it illegally and your loved ones or whoever helped you can pay the consequences for your selfishness [ not like they arent paying enough allready]

So cold with the bereaved... Have you ever considered that there may be situations in which the family agrees with their decision to kill themselves? They respect their relatives wishes and understand their pain? Have you also considered how selfish it is of others to expect someone to prolong a painful existance merely because his continued existance brings them some marginal comfort?

The way i see it, murder isnt a crime against the individual, they are dead so what do they care?

It's a crime against the state, we have these laws in place because of what we want for ourselves and the empathy we feel for others.

no, its a crime against those who will miss them and those who were supposed to spend their lives with them.

So killing a homeless, family-less hobo isn't a crime? Maybe you could extend 'those who will miss them' to include the broader society, but I really think that'd be stretching the words of what you've said here.

Their future wife, future children all of that wont come to pass.

Serius, the people I (and most others in this thread) are talking about have no chance to have any sort of a meaningful future with their family let alone create children.

I dont care if they only have 1 week to live, fuck many people would have GLADLY taken the gift of knowing when they will die, it gives you a chance to sort out your affairs and prepare yourself for it.

Fuck many people tortured for hours before their death would have rathered the end came sooner.

Everybody dies, theres no reason to be in a hurry about it.

Death is not something to take lightly, but there are existances which are worse than nothing at all.

 

[Serius]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

Well of course this should only be extended to truly terminal diseases...

and who determines that? Like i said, doctors get it wrong, sometimes people recover.

What suggests we have any right? We decide what our rights are collectively, one of the rights alot of us have decided is paramount is that of personal freedom. I'd argue this is just an extension of that right and not some completely new one.

not to say it wouldnt be nice to die painlessly, but its a bit unrealistic. Most people dont die painlessly. Being on a morphine drip for the next few days is close enough to painless as it is.

You must also be pro suicide then huh? we should allow people the freedom to choose when to end their life?

The vast, vast majority of humanity has lived under oppression with extremely limited freedoms. I think you should rethink your argument here.

sure, but i dont think we are on the same wavelength. People usually die from either sickness, or other human beings. Almost all the time there is a fair but of pain involved. I dont see how someone dieing in pain from cholera is a limit of freedoms, that being a big killer in the middle ages and all.

So killing a homeless, family-less hobo isn't a crime? Maybe you could extend 'those who will miss them' to include the broader society, but I really think that'd be stretching the words of what you've said here.

its more about potentials than who will miss you. They could have gone on to do great things, or just even made someone else happy in life. Another big part of it is the morals of the thing, i tend to beleive no one healthy can kill another human without a detrimental effect to themselves, to their soul, their consciousness call it whatever you will. Outside of the scope though.

So cold with the bereaved... Have you ever considered that there may be situations in which the family agrees with their decision to kill themselves? They respect their relatives wishes and understand their pain? Have you also considered how selfish it is of others to expect someone to prolong a painful existance merely because his continued existance brings them some marginal comfort?

Yeah ive considered it, but theres other motives in play. I can never respect someone who wants to die.

Is it always equally unpleasant and wrong?

oops missed one. I think theres a baseline of unpleasantness, it can go alot worse than your standard death, but you cant really take it away by a 'good' death.

Serius, the people I (and most others in this thread) are talking about have no chance to have any sort of a meaningful future with their family let alone create children.

thats an ideal, hypothetical situation. Terminal patients sometimes recover. People acomplish things on their deathbed. Besides, if there is only one type of ideal situation in which you condone murder, what happens to the other people who just want to end their lives painlessly and with 'dignity'. What if they only have a 10% chance of recovery? only 40%? 90%? are you going to risk the chance that they will die painfully when its within their rights [as you beleive] to end their lives peacefully?[ i realise thats close to a slippery slide arguement, but i worded it carefully ]

Fuck many people tortured for hours before their death would have rathered the end came sooner.

and a great deal more people wished death had come alot later. usually it isnt for us to decide though.

 

[withoutaface]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

Serius: If I want to be injected with cyanide, and my next of kin is willing to do so, where's the problem? I'm making a decision about what I think is best for my body, and to ignore that is for you to suppose you know what's best for me better than I do.

If another person did it, and chose to do it, and they suffer, they are suffering through their own actions which they freely chose to undertake. It would be easier for a doctor to do, however, because they have patients die all the time.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

and who determines that? Like i said, doctors get it wrong, sometimes people recover.

There are many occassions/diseases where such a grey area really does not effectively exist. People should be made aware of such a grey area and if so capable be allowed to make their decision.

not to say it wouldnt be nice to die painlessly, but its a bit unrealistic

It's not unrealistic, alot of people die 'painlessly' in the modern, western world.

You must also be pro suicide then huh? we should allow people the freedom to choose when to end their life?

No I don't think so, for the most part I don't think we should allow people to make such serious decisions while incapacitated mentally. If someone is somehow perfectly mentally stable and still wanted to kill themselves then I can't say I disagree.

sure, but i dont think we are on the same wavelength.

Well I don't understand what 'wavelength' you're on. You're saying that because the majority have not enjoyed right X we do not have right X, I'm merely pointing out that there are a shitload of rights I think we have which the majority of human beings have not. It's a silly argument.

its more about potentials than who will miss you. They could have gone on to do great things, or just even made someone else happy in life.

Let's remember we're talking of people with terminal diseases... the number who would be mis-diagnosed in the cases I am imagining is severely low.

Another big part of it is the morals of the thing, i tend to beleive no one healthy can kill another human without a detrimental effect to themselves, to their soul, their consciousness call it whatever you will.

Oh there will be some detrimental effect to you if you have to kill someone, but I think there will be just as great (if not greater) detrimental effect to you by not fulfilling the dying wish of someone in severe pain. We also have to factor in the benefit to the person dying, who gets to lose their pain and have their wish carried out.

Yeah ive considered it, but theres other motives in play.

Explain yourself.

I can never respect someone who wants to die.

So you're telling me there is no situation you can imagine yourself in, in which you'd rather die? You don't have a vivid enough imagination.

I think theres a baseline of unpleasantness, it can go alot worse than your standard death, but you cant really take it away by a 'good' death.

The idea is that the death is so much better than the painless one you were to endure that it is, relatively, good.

thats an ideal, hypothetical situation.

There are many diseases I could name for you where I can assure you if you have it you will not survive.

Terminal patients sometimes recover.

Sometimes? Try to at least imagine up a figure for me.

People acomplish things on their deathbed.

Perhaps, but are you to say those small (relatively uncommon) accomplishments are worthwhile denying someone the right to kill themselves when they're suffering tremendous pain?

Besides, if there is only one type of ideal situation in which you condone murder, what happens to the other people who just want to end their lives painlessly and with 'dignity'.

The other people cannot do so.

What if they only have a 10% chance of recovery? only 40%? 90%?

Such percentages are generally arbitrary, but I'd say the chance of recovery (factoring in possible remission, what life they will have afterwards etc) factored against the pain which they will/are suffering will be the sort of calculation done.

and a great deal more people wished death had come alot later.

What? While suffering an extreme torture?

 

[Skeeta]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

I feel euthanasia is a disturbing and disgusting concept. See Serius's arguments.

I care more for the sanctity of life than the personal whims of individuals. Life is precious and, as stated, you never know if the person might have a miraculous recovery...

Which is why most of the people who are pro-euthanasia have said that one of the conditions are for TERMINAL illnesses. There'd obviously be a lot of legal stuff to go with it. But there are some terminal illnesses that is actually a guaranteed death sentence. They KNOW it is going to be a long slow and painful death.

There are degenerative diseases, cancers beyond the course of treatment, AIDS - that cannot be cured. They KNOW they are going to die. They KNOW that it is going to be extremely painful.

What i disagree with is people who choose this option as soon as they are diagnosed.

 

[Sprinkles~]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

I'm completely pro-euthenasia within extremely strict guidlines, such as;

- it would only be available to people with terminal illness' whose suffering was only being prolonged the longer they're kept alive. (possibly for older patients with non-terminal but extremely painful or degenerative conditions where there is no succesful treatment or likely cure to be found in their life time, but only in extremes - eg if someone had being suffereing for 30 odd years with little or no quality of life)

- there would have to more than just one medical professional diagnosing the case as terminal.

- extensive counselling and psychological evaluation of the patient to make sure they were in a mind state where they are capable of making such a decision, to make sure they are 100% certain. They would also have to be fully aware that a painless death cannot be guaranteed, because it is possible for peoples' bodies to react differently to drugs. Something to be considered here is that they are already dying a painful death, so even if they did react badly to the drugs that are used the suffereing would be less than if they were to suffer in increasing agony for a prolonged death

- Counselling also for family and close friends of the patient, both prior and after if the decision is made to go ahead with it. And while they shouldn't get to make the final decision (the final decision should still come down to the patient), they should get to have a say and the oppotunity to express this to the patient.

- There should also be legislations in place to prevent people who have just being diagnosed with a degenerative terminal illness making the irrational choice to end their lives right then and there. The person must be educated about their disease, the symptoms and quality of life they are likely to experience as it gets worse, and given a chance to go through all the emotional stages that come with a diagnosis and come to terms with everything. Otherwise they could have people reacting by irrationaly decididing to kill themselves the first time they experience a bad day or epsiode.

- Their will and all those legal loose ends would have to be tied up etc...


......so basically I'd only agree for it to be legalised if it was really strict and eligability was assessed on a case to case basis, rather than saying "all people with such-and-such disease are automatically eligible for euthanasia".

I think many people who are against euthenasia (note I did say many, not all, so dont yell at me if you are totally against it ), might change their mind if they themselves were terminally ill and living in excruciating pain every minute of everyday knowing they were only going through this to die in the end anyway, or if someone they loved was terminally ill and they were having to stand by and watch them suffer needlessly. In that situation people don't want to see their loved ones keep on suffering.

I know some have said that life is to precious and that people should be grateful for that one week they have left, rather than being "selfish" and throwing it all away. Except what you have to remember is that when you are that ill you have no quality of life and its only going to deteriorate. When you're in pain every single moment of the day you're not living, you're simply existing. I just think its cruel to make people suffer like that, we dont even do it to animals. They should have that option available to them, it doesn't mean they have to use it.

There are lots of people who are always going to be against it, based on their own beliefs and opinions, but there's always going to be people against any law or legislation that is put in place, whether its over euthenasia or P-Plate laws

 

[banco55]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

.

I think many people who are against euthenasia (note I did say many, not all, so dont yell at me if you are totally against it ), might change their mind if they themselves were terminally ill and living in excruciating pain every minute of everyday knowing they were only going through this to die in the end anyway, or if someone they loved was terminally ill and they were having to stand by and watch them suffer needlessly. In that situation people don't want to see their loved ones keep on suffering.

I'm sure if a member of my family was murdered I'd want to kill their murderer that doesn't mean I think it would be good public policy to change the law to allow me to do so.

 

[Serius]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

oh snap!

Sprinkles, that is an incredibly idealistic way to look at things. Seems like a waste of tax money to set up a board for the case by case basis, counseling etc all to try and honour what you beleive is their right to end their lives. Maybe they should be footing a large bill to cover all of this, and if that happens, well then you are denying the poor their chance at a painless death.

What if i wanted to get euthanised? Afterall iam living in pain from a chronic condition, and theres a good chance i will end up suffering alot worse pain later in life. Maybe i should be allowed a painless death just in case. If you are supporting euthanasia it has to be for a reason, so tell me plainly why that is. I know NTB likes it because he thinks we should all have control over our bodies and have the right to end our lives[ you see, if he was against suicide that would have made him a fool] I disagree on moral terms with him, but i cant argue with his logic.

 

[KFunk]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

Serius, I have a hypothetical for you. Suppose you end up in a situation where you have to choose one of two options (there are no other alternatives) In the first case you could die within the next hour, without pain. In the second case, you could die over a week, during which time you would be immobilized and experiencing constant excrutiating pain. Within the situation you are able to know all these facts with absolute certainty. Note: the importance here is not how closely this aligns with real life circumstances (i.e. whether we can have absolute knowledge, whether such pain could be managed, and so on...), but whether or not you would choose a life of constant suffering.

 

[withoutaface]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

I feel euthanasia is a disturbing and disgusting concept. See Serius's arguments.

I care more for the sanctity of life than the personal whims of individuals. Life is precious and, as stated, you never know if the person might have a miraculous recovery...

I own my life, and I'll take it if I feel like it. If I'm told there's a 99% chance I'll suffer from excruciating pain for the next six months then die vs a 1% chance I'll survive for another 10 years and get through this pain, I would choose to take my life, and I don't see what basis you have to question my decision, unless you believe that you have jurisdiction over something which belongs to me.

 

[Sprinkles~]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

I'm sure if a member of my family was murdered I'd want to kill their murderer that doesn't mean I think it would be good public policy to change the law to allow me to do so.

I don’t see how that’s comparable to what I said at all.

Sprinkles, that is an incredibly idealistic way to look at things. Seems like a waste of tax money to set up a board for the case by case basis, counseling etc all to try and honour what you beleive is their right to end their lives. Maybe they should be footing a large bill to cover all of this, and if that happens, well then you are denying the poor their chance at a painless death.

People already receive individualised, case to case multidisciplinary medical care. I do not see how receiving counseling would be such a big deal since people in those situations are ALREADY receiving psychological care.

What if i wanted to get euthanised? Afterall iam living in pain from a chronic condition, and theres a good chance i will end up suffering alot worse pain later in life. Maybe i should be allowed a painless death just in case. If you are supporting euthanasia it has to be for a reason, so tell me plainly why that is. I know NTB likes it because he thinks we should all have control over our bodies and have the right to end our lives[ you see, if he was against suicide that would have made him a fool] I disagree on moral terms with him, but i cant argue with his logic.

Yes well I have a chronic illness as well, I live in total agony everyday and I definitely do NOT support euthanasia in cases as such. I am very sick and in pain but I am not dying, there is a massive difference between the two. Next people would be saying that anyone who was experiencing pain, physical or emotional, should just be allowed to go off and kill themselves.

If you had paid attention to what I said, I specifically stated that I support euthanasia in the case of TERMINALLY ill patients, people who are already dying. They are going to die no matter what - whether by euthenasia or through the course of their illness. That and possibly in elderly patients with degenerative diseases where prolonging life only causes more suffering.

I support euthanasia plain and simply because I think that terminally ill patients deserve the right to choose to end their life without having to suffer a long and increasingly painful death (and without having to search for other, less reliable ways to end their life if they make the choice, sometimes with loved ones having to help them and then being procescuted, because they're not well enough to get the resources themselves).

I do not see why someone should have to lie dying in a hospital bed, unable to function, in more pain than most of us can even imagine, knowing that it’s only going to get worse before they finally die – simply because some people can’t get their head around the concept of euthanasia?? Nobody should have to suffer like that. It’s just cruel, when you think about it we give animals more dignity than that. I'm pretty sure that if it was you suffereng so much, with the only light at the tunnel death, you'd see things a lot differently.

Their life, their body, their suffering and their death – why shouldn’t they get the choice?

That's just my opinion.

 

[withoutaface]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

Next people would be saying that anyone who was experiencing pain, physical or emotional, should just be allowed to go off and kill themselves.

People, the law, Mundial knives co and anyone who manufactures rope beg to differ.

Are you in favour of introducing gaol time for attempted suicide?

 

[Sprinkles~]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

People, the law, Mundial knives co and anyone who manufactures rope beg to differ.

Are you in favour of introducing gaol time for attempted suicide?

No, I wouldn't be. Of course not.

I dont get how that contridicts the fact that I'd support euthensia (though it is nearly 3am so i could be totallyy missing the point)

 

[withoutaface]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

No, I wouldn't be.

I dont get how that contridicts the fact that I'd support euthensia (though it is nearly 3am so i could be missing the point)

You've said that you don't think that noone should be able to choose to die for a reason other than terminal illness, and the logical extension is criminalising an attempt to perform such an act.

 

[Sprinkles~]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

agh, that's not how I meant it to sound my wording was wrong i guess. i consider legalising euthensia in people who are dying to be seperate from people who are suicidal and then attempt suicide if that even makes sense, and no i didn't meant that sentence to make it sound as if i saying it should be illegal, i have a friend who did and they need help not jail :S. i was just trying to say that i didn't think they should legalise euthensia for anyone other than the terminally ill and such.

and i've probably worded taht wrong to, i should stay away from positing things at this time, ive had to edit it a bazillion times and i dont think i explianed what i meant at all :/

 

[Serius]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

Godamnit waf, weigh in properly. Iam sick of these little sniper remarks.