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Happy Birthday Israel! (4 Viewers)

Slidey

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MaNiElla said:
Slidey, i just want to point out that Palestine is also important to arabs and muslims in general, and its also regarded as a holy place/land...which is what's causing the major problem...2 countries are fighting over land which is religiously important to both of them.
And thankfully both sides are finally starting to accept some form of agreement and compromise.

But I have no sympathy for those who claim that Israel should give up all their land, or that Israel should just move elsewhere. That's a retardedly narrow-minded claim, and it is also counter-productive to providing Palestinian land and freedom.

Whilst I don't believe the following argument, I'll make it anyway since the reverse has been made for Israel: If the Arabs support the Palestinians so much, why don't they give them a small piece of their ample land to call home.

It's a stupid argument I know, but it is stupid for the same reason arguments to move Israel and Jews into Europe are.

Also, comparing the amount of land in terms of arabs vs jews, is just like comparing the amount of land that "english speaking" countries (such as UK, US, Australia, etc) have, to that owned by arabs.
No it isn't. As far as I am aware, neither the Arabs or the West are claiming each-other's land with.

I realise land mass comparison isn't very useful, but I thought I'd give people an idea of just how little land Israel has, yet how even that is too much for many Arabs, it seems.

Furthermore, Israel isn't only Jews. 15% of it is Arabs, and they generally don't want to give up and leave Israel any more than the Jews do.
 

Omium

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JaredR said:
I'm sorry I can't value a person's opinion who can't even converse in proper english.

You're*
I don't give 2 shits*
Innocent*
Women*
Bastards*

I won't go into syntax.
n00b
 

JaredR

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Israel at 60: Reason to Celebrate
David A. Harris
Executive Director
American Jewish Committee
April 24, 2008

Israel is about to mark its sixtieth anniversary.

Some friends say they're in no mood to celebrate. The timing isn't right, they complain. The country's political circuitry is overloaded. Danger lurks on the Gaza and Lebanon borders. Iran's nuclear ambitions—and annihilationist threats—loom large. Disputes over the current peace talks with the Palestinian Authority are daily fare. Israel continues to take a beating in UN forums. The drumbeat of anti-Zionism grows louder. A fractious social climate creates long-term and seemingly insoluble fissures between Arab and Jew, not to mention Jew and Jew. And global market volatility spells trouble for the Israeli economy.

All true, perhaps. But the story mustn't end there. Milestone anniversaries offer the chance to step back, however briefly, from the news of the moment and take stock of the larger picture.

By my reckoning, Israel is quite a success story. Actually, Israel itself is nothing short of a miracle.

Think about it.

Just three years, almost to the day, after the end of the lowest point in Jewish history, the sovereign State of Israel was established. From the most vertiginous fall in the life of the Jewish people to its greatest ascent—all in a matter of just over one thousand days.

Few gave the embryonic state much chance of survival. Faced with larger armies determined to eliminate the new nation in its infancy, the 650,000 Jews defended themselves and emerged victorious.

Against all the odds, they built a state. Not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination.

A land with pitifully few natural resources required the industry and talent of its human resources. Surrounded by forces bent on its isolation and destruction, the fledgling nation couldn't let up its guard even for a moment. And a country defined as a home for Jews everywhere faced the challenge of absorbing millions of immigrants from the four corners of the earth, even as its infrastructure was stretched to the breaking point.

And it wasn't just any state that was built. It was a pulsating democratic state, reflective of a country where just about everyone believes they have a Ph.D. in survival methods, leadership, and diplomacy. Through thick and thin, Israelis have benefited from free and fair elections, smooth transfers of power, an independent judiciary, a feisty press, and political parties covering the ideological gamut. No other country in Israel's rough-and-tumble neighborhood can make similar claims.

True, the military plays a critical role in the life of a nation that couldn't survive a single day without it, but civilians control the armed forces, not the other way around.

Israel has no oil or gas reserves. Isn't that the reason, according to the joke, why Moses and the Jews wandered in the desert for forty years? To find the only place in the region without any energy resources.

Sixty percent of the land surface, in fact, is desert. Yet Israel has created a dynamic economy that, on a per capita basis, puts it squarely in the middle of the pack of European Union nations and, in the realm of high-tech, places it among the world's top innovators.

All this in a nation that has never known a single moment of true peace, yet carries this unfathomable psychological burden with extraordinary resiliency and irrepressible optimism.

Imagine what it must be like to live with the Sword of Damocles hanging over a nation's head from the get-go.

Imagine facing enemies who deny your very existence and teach contempt to children before they're old enough to read.

Imagine adversaries who have no compunction about using women and youngsters as human shields to protect terrorists; target civilians; celebrate murder; use ambulances to transport armed gunmen and weapons; employ mentally retarded children as suicide bombers; and target their own energy suppliers so they can then accuse Israel of collective punishment.

These are, of course, the same foes who have never had an interest in solving the Palestinian refugee problem, an outgrowth of two wars triggered by the Arab world in 1948 and 1967.

Are Palestinians the first refugee population in history? Hardly. But they are surely the first refugees who, as a group, have categorically resisted resettlement, instead living for decades as wards of the international community.

Indeed, in Gaza today, years after Israel renounced any territorial claims, there continue to be refugee camps. Why? Why—other than to serve as incubators for hatred that produce recruits bent on martyrdom and mayhem—are there Palestinian refugee camps in Palestinian territory?

Some argue that the foundational problem of the Arab-Israeli conflict is the Israeli occupation. I beg to differ. That's not to say the occupation, the result of Israel's 1967 war of self-defense, isn't a problem. Of course, it is. I don't for a moment underestimate the difficulties resulting from it for both Palestinians and Israelis alike. But it has a potential solution—a two-state solution, tried first in the Oslo Accords of 1993 and then in the Barak-Arafat-Clinton talks of 2000-1. Tragically, both failed.

The common denominator was Yasser Arafat. When the critical moments came, he made it abundantly clear that he was neither a Gandhi nor a Mandela. Jimmy Carter may think it fitting to lay a wreath at his gravesite, but, at the end of the day, Arafat was a failed leader. He could have ushered in a Palestinian state living alongside Israel. Instead, he opted to speak with a forked tongue, intoning the rhetoric of peace in English while speaking the language of armed struggle in Arabic. And when presented one last chance at the end of President Clinton's second term, Arafat chose to declare that there never was any historical connection between Jerusalem and the Jewish people, once again denying legitimacy to the Jewish presence anywhere in Israel.

That's been the biggest obstacle to peacemaking—the failure to recognize Israel's inherent right to exist, whatever its final borders, as a non-Arab, non-Muslim sovereign presence in the region.

Peace requires an enduring foundation of mutual respect. That will come only when Palestinian textbooks begin to describe Jews as an integral part of the Middle East, with a three thousand-year historic and spiritual connection to Jerusalem and the land, and not simply as modern-day “colonialists,” “imperialists,” or “crusaders.”

Israel's journey as a state cannot be complete until peace with all its neighbors is achieved. Peace is a strategic necessity. Peace is central to the Jewish mission on earth.

Today there are peace talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority and, more quietly, it appears, between Israel and Syria. Could there be a better birthday present for Israel than peace accords on both fronts?

Wishing for peace and achieving it, however, are quite different. For Israel, the challenges are many.

For example, world leaders can talk all they want about the need for a “democratic” and “demilitarized” Palestinian state living next to Israel, but realizing those twin goals may not be so easy. When a top American strategist was asked how to ensure demilitarization, a position he advocated, he had no answer. And given the strikingly short distances, a new Palestinian state could be in a position to wreak havoc on Israel's population centers. Those who assert that an international force can serve as a buffer may be right up to a point, but the experience of UNIFIL in Lebanon is a sobering reminder of the limitations of peacekeeping forces. Iran and Syria smuggle weapons to Hezbollah, and UN forces largely look the other way.

But because I believe in Israel, I believe in miracles. Few could have imagined full-fledged peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan thirty-five years ago, yet today both are realities. In point of fact, had Palestinian and Syrian leaders taken a page from the late Anwar Sadat and King Hussein, who convinced Israelis that they were true men of peace, there could have been agreements long ago. Perhaps tomorrow will be different.

Meanwhile, Israel, the miracle, continues to inspire awe—for its very being and for being the vibrant country it is.

No, it's not perfect. Israel has made its share of mistakes and faces more than a few unresolved issues. Statecraft, at the end of the day, is an imprecise science no matter where it's exercised.

But Israel operates in a context, not a vacuum. It reflects both domestic and global realities. And the vagaries of decision-making don't bypass Israeli leaders any more than leaders of other democratic countries. Still, Israel, like other democratic societies that benefit from a robust political culture and vibrant civil society, has the self-corrective mechanisms that invite both appraisal and improvement.

At the end of the day, for me, the meaning of Israel is perhaps best encapsulated in three enduring images.

In 1991, I went to Israel at the start of the Gulf War, as Iraq fired Scud missiles at the Jewish state. During a visit to Ben-Gurion Airport, I was struck by the arrival of Soviet Jews during this tough period. They weren't afraid to come, and Israel didn't miss a beat in welcoming them. In other words, even as Israel faced the uncertain prospect of full-scale war with Iraq, it never faltered in its commitment to serve as a home and haven for Jews seeking a new start.

In 2000, during the so-called second intifada, I was in the northern part of Tel Aviv. I passed a construction site. On the sidewalk nearby a Palestinian Muslim laid out his rug and began his prayer ritual as he faced in the direction of Mecca. No one interfered with him in any way. Even as Palestinians elsewhere were attacking Israelis, this scene spoke volumes about Israel's commitment to democracy and pluralism.

And in 2006, after Hezbollah started a war with a cross-border raid, an AJC delegation, the first to arrive from the U.S., visited Rambam Hospital in Haifa. The emergency room was ready to receive casualties, be they military or civilian, Arab or Jew, and it received them in droves. Elsewhere in the hospital, though, even as Hezbollah-fired missiles rained down on northern Israel, medical researchers continued their investigative work—regularly interrupted by the need to rush to bomb shelters—in the fields of cancer, diabetes, and stem cells.

In other words, as Hezbollah and its Iranian backers were seeking to shorten life for Israelis, Israeli scientists were seeking to extend life for all.

Yes, there is much to celebrate, starting with our good fortune to witness what countless generations before us could only dream about—the sovereign State of Israel.

It makes me want to jump for joy.
It's a long, but interesting read.
 

Raven3333

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Read thee article it is nothing more then a puff piece on why Isreal is good and why Palestine is bad. Also it blames Yasar Arafat for not ending the violence and describes him as a "failed leader" which is a bit rich when under the circumstances I would consider him a great leader. I mean you wouldn't be so heellbound on making peace if you where under house arrest by an occupier eaither. Also calling him a failed leader when that absouloute incompetent moronic idiot Ariel Sharon was in charge of Isreal is just ironic.
 

JaredR

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Any leader whose personal wealth exceeds $700 million, much of it from foreign aid, whilst his people lacked proper health facilities is no great leader.

Any Palestinian leader who turns down an offer for all of Gaza, 95% of the West Bank, a Palestinian State with it's capital in Jerusalem and a $30 billion remuneration package for the 1948 "Refugees" and instead offers no alternative is no great leader.

Because of his leadership and Hamas, the people of Gaza remain isolated and rely on the constant good-will of Israel for their survival. i.e. Israel constantly transports Gazans to Israeli hospitals for life-saving surgery etc. Instead, Arafat took the opportunity in his own illness and travelled to France.

They say a great captain will go down with his ship if some of his passengers do too, the same should be said about a leader of a nation. If his people prospered, he should too, but whilst his people suffered, he shouldn't be greedy in his wealth that he stole from them.
 

Dongle

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Gay Captain said:
If I only invade and take over one corner of your house is it ok? I have a holy book that says my ancestors were there 4000 years ago too :D
Lol. I happen to also have a holy book that legitimises my right to seize your backyard. You see, my ancestors found spiritual enlightenment in that place 4000 years ago.....

Let's stop being naive. Force rules. Questions of legitimacy and sovereignty are irrelevant. Although I do tend to side with the Palestinians.
 

JaredR

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No wonder there is so much anti-Israel sentiment. It is so vogue in universities as extremist lecturers indoctrinate their classes with spiteful, anti-semitic propoganda!

I have been informed today of a tutorial conducted by an Arab tutor about the Israeli-Arab conflict. I have been informed that the discussion was one-sided and that the tutor derogatorily misused and defaced the American flag by replacing the stars with the Israeli flag with underneath "Israel/Palestine: Illegal Occupation"

University lecturers and tutors are allowed to have opinions but should present a balanced and fair argument from both sides instead of indoctrinating impressionable young minds. It was meant to be about the Arab-Israeli Conflict and any idiot would know that with a conflict there are TWO SIDES.

For shame Macquarie University, for shame!
 

Omium

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JaredR said:
No wonder there is so much anti-Israel sentiment. It is so vogue in universities as extremist lecturers indoctrinate their classes with spiteful, anti-semitic propoganda!

I have been informed today of a tutorial conducted by an Arab tutor about the Israeli-Arab conflict. I have been informed that the discussion was one-sided and that the tutor derogatorily misused and defaced the American flag by replacing the stars with the Israeli flag with underneath "Israel/Palestine: Illegal Occupation"

University lecturers and tutors are allowed to have opinions but should present a balanced and fair argument from both sides instead of indoctrinating impressionable young minds. It was meant to be about the Arab-Israeli Conflict and any idiot would know that with a conflict there are TWO SIDES.

For shame Macquarie University, for shame!
lol.
You seem to be talking to yourself in this thread (in case you hadnt noticed) , you occupied all of Page 9...
We get it... Israel Rulzz Palestine Sux.

The End.
 
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JaredR

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The statistics for export of agriculture would have been much higher had Israel not unilateraly withdrawn from Gaza Strip where Israeli settlers had harvested green houses filled with citruses which n ot only supplied a great portion of Israeli produce but also exported produce.

When it was left for the Palestinians, instead of continuing the harvest they looted and destroyed the green houses.
 

MaNiElla

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JaredR said:
When it was left for the Palestinians, instead of continuing the harvest they looted and destroyed the green houses.
No.
Palestinians cherish, and treasure their olive trees, orange trees, and all their harvest. Their farms were dramatically destroyed when the Israeli army began bulldozing and forcefully stealing their farms off them thank you very much!
 

Slidey

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MaNiElla said:
No.
Palestinians cherish, and treasure their olive trees, orange trees, and all their harvest. Their farms were dramatically destroyed when the Israeli army began bulldozing and forcefully stealing their farms off them thank you very much!
oh you so silly
 

ari89

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MaNiElla said:
No.
Palestinians cherish, and treasure their olive trees, orange trees, and all their harvest. Their farms were dramatically destroyed when the Israeli army began bulldozing and forcefully stealing their farms off them thank you very much!
Yeah!
And the Palestinans also gave aid to help the Israelis but instead of being grateful the IDF just killed 5 billion innocent Palestinian children! Then PM Ehud Olmert raped every single Palestinian women and child personally! And this is why we are obligated to hate the zionist invaders!
 

sam04u

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JaredR said:
The statistics for export of agriculture would have been much higher had Israel not unilateraly withdrawn from Gaza Strip where Israeli settlers had harvested green houses filled with citruses which n ot only supplied a great portion of Israeli produce but also exported produce.

When it was left for the Palestinians, instead of continuing the harvest they looted and destroyed the green houses.
Listen you retard, Israel has no right to Gaza/Strip. They're occupying land that they have no right too. I'm not talking about the land that was given to Israel by European guilt. But the land that was occupied illegaly by Israel betweeen the 40s and 60s. That is occupied territory, and Israel should never have occupied it.

What you're saying now is this: "Israel was better at occupying Palestinian land than the Palestinians. That justifies Israel occupying their land."

What I'm saying is: "No."

Happy Birthday Israel. You illegitimate cunt. You know what the ultimate paradox of Israel is? It occupies land which was annexed in battle, almost as if we're living in the middle ages where one could conquest land. They do all this, yet they have the audacity to criticise their neighbours of being backwards.

So even though what you were saying is false it doesn't matter because even if it was true, that doesn't justify what you're implying. That being said, I do not recognise Israel. I do not recognise Israel, because how can you recognise a state whose borders are not certain, rather it's a dotted line that continually expands. How do you recognise a state where the capital city is clearly "occupied territory"? How do you recognise a state, where in order to claim the land, have to spread propoganda which not only denies the people who occupied the land existed there in the numbers they did, but then further claims that they never existed?

I do not recognise Israel, because it's unrecognisable. I do not recognise Israel's right to occupy territory they gained illegaly. I do not recognise Israel's concentration camp in Gaza.

Fuck Zionism and all those who believe or justify this failed ideology.
 

Slidey

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So, in conclusion Sam:

"Fuck you. Israel stole that land which it has occupied for thousands of years! Jews don't deserve to live in the Middle East! Palestine should have it! Zionism conspiracy!"
 

sam04u

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Slidey said:
So, in conclusion Sam:

"Fuck you. Israel stole that land which it has occupied for thousands of years! Jews don't deserve to live in the Middle East! Palestine should have it! Zionism conspiracy!"
Pretty much, except the underlined part. If you look at Prince Harry's little economic chart, you'll see Israel's biggest import is not gold, wheat or even iron for that matter. It's Europeans.
 

JaredR

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Listen you retard, Israel has no right to Gaza/Strip.
You should put this in the past tense as Israel no longer occupies the Gaza Strip. Ariel Sharon unilaterally (meaning no peace agreement was formed) withdrew. In previous instances where Israel has gained territory due to Arab aggression, she has returned land and received peace (Jordan and Egypt). Sharon unilaterraly withdrawing took the higher ground saying that Israel needs to make territorial concessions if she is to gain peace.

But the land that was occupied illegaly by Israel betweeen the 40s and 60s.
Israel gained more land in 1948 when the Arab agressors converged on the newly created state from all sides. The pockets of Jewish Israel were in areas with Jewish majority and the Arab agressors wanted no such Jewish state; there are many Arabs, including terrorist groups such as Hamas that still deny Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. The Gaza Strip, West Bank and Golan Heights was captured in 1967 after Arab agressors again converged on the State of Israel.

It occupies land which was annexed in battle
The definition of annex is "take (territory) as if by conquest". Israel did not set out to annex the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights. Israel legitimately defended herself from foreign armies who used these areas to attack innocent Israelis and military units.

The only "annexed" part is the Golan Heights the rest is "occupied".

I do not recognise Israel's concentration camp in Gaza.
Unlike the Jewish concentration camps who were powerless, the Palestinians of Gaza have enough power to disrupt daily life for Isaelis across the bordern in legitimate territory. It's a concentration camp created by themselves.


_____________________________

In further news:

A rocket fired from the Gaza Strip, apparently a Katyusha-type rocket, exploded in a shopping center in the southern city of Ashkelon on Wednesday, wounding at least ten people.

Source: http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/983435.html
_____________________________

For years small towns on the Gazan border have faced this relentless bombardment of rockets at local civillian populations - they're extending their range to larger commercial centres and major cities.
 

JaredR

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sam04u said:
Pretty much, except the underlined part. If you look at Prince Harry's little economic chart, you'll see Israel's biggest import is not gold, wheat or even iron for that matter. It's Europeans.
What do you have against Europeans in Israel? European institutions have some of the greatest democracies, political systems, education systems, living standards etc.

Is it because you're concerned that there will be a fall in Arab domination of the Middle East?

Because you have nothing to worry about, you still dominate population-wise, land-wise, Islamic-wise, just not militarily-wise :D
 

sam04u

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JaredR said:
What do you have against Europeans in Israel? European institutions have some of the greatest democracies, political systems, education systems, living standards etc.

Is it because you're concerned that there will be a fall in Arab domination of the Middle East?

Because you have nothing to worry about, you still dominate population-wise, land-wise, Islamic-wise, just not militarily-wise :D
No. Israel just fails. I mean look at the the graphic in your signature. The "I" has a Star of David above it. Implying it's a lower case "i", whereas "I" in Israel is supposed to be capitalised. Even a 10 year old could tell you that.

Just another example of Israel failing.
 
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