Howard's migration plan (2 Viewers)

[JaredR]

Yet again a thread turns into

Judaism vs Islam.

The thread question is:

I would just like to know what people think of Howard's plan to make migrants learn English to be a citizen of Australia.

I would like to say in response to this question (yet again) It is most appropriate.

 

[poloktim]

I thought the problem was some people are failing to integrate. This can be addressed by people who *have* integrated.

Also, while we're at it. What do people here mean when they say integrate? Do we mean accepting various aspects of Australian life while including their own way of life, and benefiting the community by showing our country's diversity? Else do we mean wearing blue contact lenses, bleaching their hair blonde, wearing wife-beaters/boob-tubes ten sizes too small, and drinking several too many at the pub? I could continue with that stereotype to show "our" bad sides, you know, the ones that prompted the "Violence Against Women" commercials.

There's a difference between integration and assimilation. My parents are Australian, I'm Australian, and I'm not part of a racial background who is an ethnic minority, yet even I can see that too many people here are proposing the Islamic community assimilate whereas "model minorities" such as those with a Chinese/Greek/Italian background are encouraged to integrate into Australian society.

We can benefit from every different culture. We can better ourselves by learning from the mistakes of other countries. We can better ourselves by adopting systems used in other countries. We can also give ourselves a better image with the rest of the world by showing that Australia is an accepting country, tolerant of people from all walks of life. Not "tolerant to all but group xyz."

I tend to think we should be taking the dificulty people from a given country will have integrating when deciding how many to take and from where. It's absurd to take say 100 000 from sudan who end up costing the government twice as much in expenses (education, dole money etc) as 100 000 from say korea.

But people aren't a commodity. They can't be bought or sold, so why place a price on them? The government isn't a business, either. I see no problem in a government that spends money on supporting immigriation, it's better than seeing said government throw millions away on advertising campaigns for the introduction of controversial laws (for example, Work Choices).

 

[spiny norman]

It doesn't to me, I was explaining where the conflict started, and why Aryan who is as Generator said (sub-gutter level). Would bring the racist generalisations to this thread in an attempt to stir racial barriers.

Sam's first post in the thread:

Actually ZabZu, my Jewish buddy I beg to differ. I believe it is the Islamic-Australians who (for the time they've existed in Australia) and their polar belief systems have integrated 'better' in comparison to their ideologies as a group.

I don't think I've ever seen a Jew person embracing Australian sub-culture, by attending a game of cricket or football. I'm also 'very' sure that the Australian Jewish community has secluded themselves in nothern sydney (near the bondi area to be specific), they also rarely leave this area.

.
Once again a false statement. I've yet to see a Lebanese fruit or sweets shop deny access to Non-Muslim people. SMH, is again making up more crap since Australia does not allow incest and therefore none can marry within the family. I've also seen Islamic people marry people of different religions and cultures in Australia, Yet' I've never seen a Jewish person marry anybody except another Jewish person.

Therefore, I've come to the conclusion that you're spewing a load of crap.
Also that you're a racist, trying to stir more racial violence. Hopefully we will not succumb to your crap you imbecilic bigot. Instead, we should try to work together as we have in the past.

No generalisations nor 'attempts to stir racial barriers' there. Despite being the first post to make any reference whatsoever to the Jewish people.

 

[banco55]

But people aren't a commodity. They can't be bought or sold, so why place a price on them? The government isn't a business, either. I see no problem in a government that spends money on supporting immigriation, it's better than seeing said government throw millions away on advertising campaigns for the introduction of controversial laws (for example, Work Choices).

We already pick and choose by making it much easier to come here if you have certain skills, if you are over a certain age it is virtually impossible to come here. Australia isn't noah's ark we don't need to take two of everything because their food is sort of interesting.

 

[sam04u]

Sam's first post in the thread:



No generalisations nor 'attempts to stir racial barriers' there. Despite being the first post to make any reference whatsoever to the Jewish people.

It was in response to ZabZu's post go check it out.

 

[JaredR]

What do people here mean when they say integrate?

"From this time forward, under G-d,
I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people,
whose democratic beliefs I share,
whose rights and liberties I respect,
and whose laws I will uphold and obey"

I think that's a pretty good summary of the policy of integration?

 

[JayB]

i'd hate to say it sam, but you have some very pre-concieved notions about jewish people, that are very insulting, and very inflammatory. for someone who doesn't like generalisations, you are very eager to generalise 95% of the jewish population when your contact with them involved internet communication with two idf soldiers. please, keep an open mind, and actually meet and communicate with jews in an open dialogue rather than keeping the same ntions about them that have existed for 2000 years

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Well, Captain, if we use their logic.
They actually do think they are 'superior' as they're gods people, and therefore should have more rights then muslims. According to the Jews you should be their slaves, who (should be paid) ofcourse according to Halakah. Also, when you look at the mizvot, surely they can betrove your women, but none but the jews shal betrowve the jewish women.

Are you being serious?

Of course if you want to look in the Talmud you can find plenty of quotes from rabbis several millenia ago saying nasty things about non-jews. But for every quote you can find I can find an equivalent "sons of pigs and apes" quote about Jews from non-Jews (usually Presbyterians or Anglicans, of course), and then the thread degrades into name calling and gets closed again.

To me (and hopefully everyone else!) none of that's important at all compared to what's actually happening here, today. You keep saying there's so many Jewish people that aren't integrating, well, there are suburbs of Melbourne with very large Jewish populations, why are they never in the news for similar reasons as say, Lakemba?

And whoever said media bias is being ridiculous considering the mainstream media's active defence and wholesale acceptance of propganda of Hezbollah.

They also, (as can be seen during the recent war) value their loves more then then lives of non-jews. Ofcourse this is because they think they are gods people. (this can be seen in Israel, where non Jews are treated at the sub-standard level) having little or no rights. They're even denied rights to education at predominantly Jewish schools. Also, the national language being the language of the jews, and what not. It makes it hard for non-jews to get their basic rights, as they would neeed to learn a new language. (Ofcourse, they can only learn this language in the 'jewish schools')

Umm, what does this have to do with Australian migrants, who come to Australia, integrating into Australian society, with Australians, in Australia?

Even if half of that were true (which it just isn't), I could find 10 Arab theocracies for every Israel and we'd be back to name calling again. In fact, non-Jews have equal rights in Israel, and how can you complain about the language? It's like complaining that the national language of France is French, ffs.

[Do you see what using a polar country can do to the topic? That's why you pissed Generator off]

Yeah, and you're the one that's started and is continuing it. Can you make one coherent argument without reference to any filth about Israel?

Unfortunately what can we do now? Especially with rat-bags like Aryan spreading these Lies about muslims.

Says you at the end of a post full of truths about your favourite scapegoat for all the world's problems? At least what Aryan posted was somewhat true.

 

[Generator]

Do you see what using a polar country can do to the topic? That's why you pissed Generator off

Don't jump the gun, sam. The tangent is annoying, yes, but it's the language that Aryanbeauty used in order to stress his point that I could not stand.

Edit: As for the tangent, I agree with Captain Ghey.

 

[*hopeful*]

yeah i think learning english is a good start

 

[P_Dilemma]

Well, learning English in Australia would make life a helluva lot easier for everybody. The basic level is enough, grammar, punctuation, spelling... there's no need for everyone to speek Oxford-English. Personally, i'd prefer if everybody spoke english with a curry accent; it'd make life funnier for a while, before i get bored of it.

Well, now that we've agreed that we should all learn english, the next question is how it shold be taught and learnt.

If you're thinking about putting them through HSC English, please expect riots, hurricanes and hellfire.

-P_D

 

[JayB]

how about a course similar to the ones in foreign countries, english as a second language on speed if you will?

 

[HotShot]

Well, now that we've agreed that we should all learn english, the next question is how it shold be taught and learnt.
-P_D

I dont agree, i dont agree to the fact that we need to be forced to learn english. If people learn from their own free will - then thats gud. But being forced to learn basically goes against the principles that this country stands for and thats primarily freedom. The fact that u respect other peoples differences and give every equal status.

just imagine as i posted earlier if china or india forced u learnt their national language just to stay in their country - its ridiculous.

if people can survive without learning english in this country ( and a lot of people do) then i cant understnad why such a policy should be implemented. if u cant understand someone and they can understand u - then its up to to learn the language. it shouldnt be forced.

 

[banco55]

I dont agree, i dont agree to the fact that we need to be forced to learn english. If people learn from their own free will - then thats gud. But being forced to learn basically goes against the principles that this country stands for and thats primarily freedom. The fact that u respect other peoples differences and give every equal status.

just imagine as i posted earlier if china or india forced u learnt their national language just to stay in their country - its ridiculous.

if people can survive without learning english in this country ( and a lot of people do) then i cant understnad why such a policy should be implemented. if u cant understand someone and they can understand u - then its up to to learn the language. it shouldnt be forced.

Why have any requirements for citizenship than? After all that would constrain our "freedoms" no? Speaking of India and china ring up their embassy and ask how you can emigrate there. See how far you get. I think it's kind of weird how people who always prattle on about diversity never suggest that India, China etc. should accept 1 million western europeans/hispanics etc. in the name of diversity.

 

[HotShot]

Why have any requirements for citizenship than? After all that would constrain our "freedoms" no? Speaking of India and china ring up their embassy and ask how you can emigrate there. See how far you get.

Citizenship is your choice isnt it? Citizenship is there for u support to the government and government to support u. Requirements are not forced upon. They have rules and u follow them , but nothing to force you. Most people who are citizens of Australia can speak english and if they can learn to speak it.

just a though why should this only apply to immigrant and not australians, i am sure there are some dudes out there who could barely speak.

Why bother ringing up when i already know.

 

[HotShot]

who always prattle on about diversity never suggest that India, China etc. should accept 1 million western europeans/hispanics etc. in the name of diversity.

1 million is a lot people people, let alone to China and India who can barely manage a billion people. sometimes there are limitations - which cannot be helped. They do what they can.

You would surprised how diverse India is, it is one the most exotics places on earth.

 

[*Minka*]

As a Croatian immigrant to Australia, I have a really personal experience with this and honestly thing they best approach is not to pick on migrants, but to welcome them and to be supportive. I came to this country speaking Croatian, Serbian, German and a smattering of French, Italian, Dutch and Czech, but no English. And well, look at me now. I am Australian at heart and speak English. Why? Because people were kind and supportive to me.

Be supportive because making people feel welcome encourages integratoon. I went to high school feeling like the girl who didn't belong and people were so supportive to me and it really made me feel welcome. People in my classes taught me about Australia, what the flag symbolised, the words of the national anthem. They were happy to hear aobut Croatia and my life there and I think most of my class can say Hello, Goodbye, Thank you, and counting 1-10 in Hrvastki.

It is about not picking on immigrants and making them reclusive so they stick together, it is about being welcoming and friendly. It makes a world of difference you know. It made me feel Australian and in turn, improved my English because I was happier at school and had friends which made it easier. If people are willing to be friendly to us, you will be amazed how friendly we will be to you.

I still get the occasional grossly uninformed 'Don't you have someone to shoot?' or 'Gonna put Landmines in our park?' comments, but they are isolated. Supportiveness and a willingness to be accepting is always the best approach. Give people a reason to want to learn English instead of forcing it and implkying that immigrants ruin the country. You catch more bees with honey than vinegar or how the saying goes.

(Yeah, my English is not perfect, but I can communicate albiet a Croatian accent so it is all good)

 

[P_Dilemma]

Who said anything about forcing ppl to learn the language?

The thing is, if one wants to live a relatively good life in Australia, one must have some hold on the language. There are only so many stores with people who can speak swahili. There are only so many branches of the RTA with people who speak farsi. There are only so many Maccas outlets with kids who speak polish.

It's like that medicare card thing: No one's forcing you to get one, you just won't be able to do things without it. Social security, for example.

So, we shouldn't be forcing ppl to learn the language. A degree of persuasion must be used.

-P_D

 

[Gurlpower]

at the end of the day muslims will never integrate, theres just nothing in common.

no love of the land, love of the neighbour, no biding race, or looks.

from my view of life they think there superior but most of them act like idiots.

 

[HotShot]

at the end of the day muslims will never integrate, theres just nothing in common.

no love of the land, love of the neighbour, no biding race, or looks.

from my view of life they think there superior but most of them act like idiots.

k......lol.. u speak as though u know every single muslim in the world..

they have already integrated.. its just some rascist fucks in australia fgivin them a hard time.

love of the land.. - pls who were the ones to destroy the aboriginal land? and to destroy an entire generation...

"from my view of life" - wtf.. so u think that u r superior to them?... gud on ya.