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Israel attacks Lebanon (4 Viewers)

HotShot

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Nolanistic said:
Here's a situation I postulate to you that shows the difference between Hezbollah and the Israeli's.

Were Hezbollah to back out of Southern Lebanon and Israel were to occupy the land, whilst there would be several deaths of resisting factions and the civilian casualties that come with such resistance, a vast majority of the people would be fine, sure they would be reaping the sorrows of a destroyed economy and facilities, but they would still be living and little harm would come to them.

I have no doubt that if the IDF threw down its arms, the Israelis' would be slaughtered mercilessly by the Islamic Militants? Why? Because they've been conditioned from a young age to hate the Israelis. Just like the Saudi youth whose minds are being poisoned in the madrasses.

I've let it be no secret that I'm pro-zion, and for obvious reasons. The IDF are openly attacking people, they aren't the cowards hezbollah are, hiding behind civilians and leaving their civilians to be slaughtered as a form of media combat. It's atrocious, and whilst I'm aware that Israel is being... less than compassionate in regards to civilian casualties, at least they're deliberately attacking military targets.

Unlike the terrorist hezbollah scum that are firing rockets into civilian centres.

Double fucking standard and the ISRAELIS are in the wrong?

I don't think so.
I think u got somethin srs wrong their - Israel as we they claim are a democratic nation. Hezbollah are a terrorist organisation.

The role of terrorist is to kill everone and give no shit - otherwise we wouldnt call them terrorists.

Israel as a democratic nation - has to obey UN LAWS and follow humanitarian laws and guidelines - but they dont. SO then naturally they are in the wrong. They had so many other possiblities to suppress hezbollah.

Many non-israeli politicians, generals etc claim in this war - israel will not be able to defeat hezbollah or even prevent them from attacking Israel.

Dont forget the palestinians...

Israelis blame the lebanese government for not weeding out Hezbollah. But they couldnt because they was so much instability in the past, recent and present times. A lot of you were quick to point out that hezbollah were in the lebanese parliament - they are as a means solving the negotiating with them diplomatically. the government doesnt have the power or the means to tackle hezbollah in a militaric manner and even ISrael is finding it difficult (missing a lot of targets...). - u can read this i think on BBC Have you say - they had the lebanese economic minister.
 

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Not-That-Bright said:
They're fighting an urban war, where else would they keep their rockets/weaponry than in civilian structures?
guerilla warfare..

true.. but is it necessary? i mean everyone agrees that israel should defend itself but is it necessary to blow up an entire nation?

the hezbollah rockets have only reached northern israel - how far deep are the hezbollahs shooting from?
 

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Not-That-Bright said:
No I don't think Israel is doing the right thing.
I think they are going about the wrong way - this will only worsen the situation in relation to terrorism and conflict in the middle east. i dont think a un peace keeping force will do any good - i mean america struggle to control iraq.

diplomatic solutions would have been ideal even if they take time - there is some guarantee it work. lebanese government it seems were working hezbollah to disarm and allowed them into parliament to put forward their views - not a bad idea. but still lebanon would have little control over them and as result has led to the kidnapping of the israeli soldiers.

israel didnt respond in the right way-- there was little chance of getting those prisoners back alive. i think israel should have really solved the palestinian issue before pushing forward.
 

sam04u

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Nolanistic you really are an idiot, a maddrassa is just arabic for school. It's obvious that you would think that a group of women and children hiding in a building because of the Israeli attacks is a tactic to allow people to die for the media to see. Because you're a fucking imbecile, it's the jew occupants who are killing innocent civilians and you're too stupid to see it. The difference between Israeli terrorism (which the IDF actually employs as a scare tactic) and the Hezbollah resistance is that one is the aggressor and that is the Israeli government. I'm sure it's your anti-religious beliefs that allow you to belief the death of innocent civilians done 'openly' is a great Idea! especially when one army is significantly more powerful then the other. (wow, you really do prove your stupidity daily, you're so easy to brain wash.)

I have no doubt that if the IDF threw down its arms, the Israelis' would be slaughtered mercilessly by the Islamic Militants? Why? Because they've been conditioned from a young age to hate the Israelis. Just like the Saudi youth whose minds are being poisoned in the madrasses.
Surely, those are words of a xenophobic imbecile who has been poisoned by american media and years of anti-islamic tales by racist parents who blame Islam for everything because they're truely scared of real religion. Your parents obviously worship satan and have brainwashed you to say these things, it's typical of an atheist to think in such a way. (Thank you for proving that Atheists are racist, xenophobic and imbecilic and are quick to believe in 'fairytale' conspiracies and factions. No wonder they don't believe in a God.)

They're fighting an urban war, where else would they keep their rockets/weaponry than in civilian structures?
Have you seen weaponry in civilian structures? It's obvious that just like the other atheist nolanistic you're brainwashed into believing this and can justify the death of innocents as collateral damage because of the imbecilic poisoning of the minds which the atheists so adamantly support. (damned atheists, they hate muslims because we don't accept their poor theories and don't accept their faulty logic as to why 'god doesn't exist'.

I'm sure you know everything that goes on in Lebanon, obviously both you dick-faces (Nolanistic and Not-That-Bright), know more then me about what is going on in Lebanon and Israel, and the IDF. (Because you watch it on the news, and I actually have family and friends on both sides, why would I know? It would be impossible right?)

I'm sure you know of the urban warfare too right? The warfare I was using imagery to explain weeks ago right? I'm sure you've just learnt about it.

Besides, the whole in the truck wasn't from a 800lb (400kg) bomb which the jet-fighters use, it was obviously a mortar shell, but what difference does it make? It landed into a red cross truck that must make the IDF look like geniuses to you atheists who support the death of people who are religious!


Wow, I'm so glad idiots like you two exist, you make me feel sooo Intelligent. (I bet both your IQ's added together and cut in half is still 15 points less than mine. ) Imbeciles :D
 

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I'd point out that Nolan's actually an agnostic, rather than an atheist, and has not to my knowledge offered up evidence as to why God doesn't exist, because by definition he doesn't know whether God exists or not. He may, however, have identified that your reasoning for why he does exist is completely faulty, and/or that your prophet is paedophile scum.

Also I think from the situation where more than 800 Israelis die from Islamic suicide bombings each year would make it clear that religion does indeed create death.

Also I'm curious as to how you come to the conclusion that the Israeli government is the agressor, given Hezbollah's aim is to destory Israel (as Israel withdrew from Southern Lebanon six years ago), and that the whole thing was started when Hezbollah made an unauthorised incursion onto Israeli turf and kidnapped Israeli personnel. Also keep in mind that Israel wants to have a ceasefire, but Hezbollah (as an extra-governmental force) won't agree to disarm, and if their reason is because they want to defend Lebanon they could easily just choose to sell their equipment to/become answerable to the Lebanese military, thus handing the monopoly on legitimate use of force back to the Lebanese government and allowing it to determine its own affairs, as is the right of any democractically elected government.
 
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741467

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nolanistic,

The "hiding among civilians" myth
Israel claims it's justified in bombing civilians because Hezbollah mingles with them. In fact, the militant group doesn't trust its civilians and stays as far away from them as possible.


By Mitch Prothero

Jul. 28, 2006 | The bombs came just as night fell, around 7 p.m. The locals knew that the 10-story apartment building had been the office, and possibly the residence, of Sheik Tawouk, the Hezbollah commander for the south, so they had moved their families out at the start of the war. The landlord had refused to rent to Hezbollah when they requested the top floors of the building. No matter, the locals said, the Hezb guys just moved in anyway in the name of the "resistance."

Everyone knew that the building would be hit eventually. Its location in downtown Tyre, which had yet to be hit by Israeli airstrikes, was not going to protect it forever. And "everyone" apparently included Sheik Tawouk, because he wasn't anywhere near it when it was finally hit.

Two guided bombs struck it in a huge flash bang of fire and concrete dust followed by the roar of 10 stories pancaking on top of each other, local residents said. Jihad Husseini, 46, runs the driving school a block away and was sitting in his office when the bombs struck. He said his life was saved because he had drawn the heavy cloth curtains shut on the windows facing the street, preventing him from being hit by a wave of shattered glass. But even so, a chunk of smoldering steel flew through the air, broke through the window and the curtain, and shot past his head and through the wall before coming to rest in his neighbor's home.

But Jihad still refuses to leave.

"Everything is broken, but I can make it better," he says, surrounded by his sons Raed, 20, and Mohammed, 12. "I will not leave. This place is not military, it is not Hezbollah; it was an empty apartment."

Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

For their part, the Israelis seem to think that if they keep pounding civilians, they'll get some fighters, too. The almost nightly airstrikes on the southern suburbs of Beirut could be seen as making some sense, as the Israelis appear convinced there are command and control bunkers underneath the continually smoldering rubble. There were some civilian casualties the first few nights in places like Haret Hreik, but people quickly left the area to the Hezbollah fighters with their radios and motorbikes.

But other attacks seem gratuitous, fishing expeditions, or simply intended to punish anything and anyone even vaguely connected to Hezbollah. Lighthouses, grain elevators, milk factories, bridges in the north used by refugees, apartment buildings partially occupied by members of Hezbollah's political wing -- all have been reduced to rubble.

In the south, where Shiites dominate, just about everyone supports Hezbollah. Does mere support for Hezbollah, or even participation in Hezbollah activities, mean your house and family are fair game? Do you need to fire rockets from your front yard? Or is it enough to be a political activist?

The Israelis are consistent: They bomb everyone and everything remotely associated with Hezbollah, including noncombatants. In effect, that means punishing Lebanon. The nation is 40 percent Shiite, and of that 40 percent, tens of thousands are employed by Hezbollah's social services, political operations, schools, and other nonmilitary functions. The "terrorist" organization Hezbollah is Lebanon's second-biggest employer.

People throw the phrase "ghost town" around a lot, but Nabatiya, a bombed-out town about 15 miles from the Lebanon-Israel border, deserves it. One expects the spirits of the town's dead, or its refugees, to silently glide out onto its abandoned streets from the ruined buildings that make up much of the town.

Not all of the buildings show bomb damage, but those that don't have metal shutters blown out as if by a terrible wind. And there are no people at all, except for the occasional Hezbollah scout on a motorbike armed only with a two-way radio, keeping an eye on things as Israeli jets and unmanned drones circle overhead.

Overlooking the outskirts of this town, which has a peacetime population of 100,000 or so -- mostly Shiite supporters of Hezbollah and its more secular rival Amal -- is the Ragheh Hareb Hospital, a facility that makes quite clear what side the residents of Nabatiya are on in this conflict.

The hospital's carefully sculpted and trimmed front lawn contains the giant Red Crescent that denotes the Muslim version of the Red Cross. As we approach it, an Israeli missile streaks by, smashing into a school on the opposite hilltop. As we crouch and then run for the shelter of the hospital awning, that giant crescent reassures me until I look at the flagpole. The Lebanese flag and its cedar tree is there -- right next to the flag of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

It's safe to say that Ragheh Hareb Hospital has an association with Hezbollah. And the staff sports the trimmed beards and polite, if somewhat ominous, manner of the group. After young men demand press IDs and do some quick questioning, they allow us to enter.

Dr. Ahmed Tahir recognizes me from a funeral in the nearby village of Dweir. An Israeli bomb dropped on their house killed a Hezbollah cleric and 11 members of his immediate family, mostly children. People in Lebanon are calling it a war crime. Tahir looks exhausted, and our talk is even more tense than the last time.

"Maybe it would be best if the Israelis bombed your car on the road here," he said, with a sharp edge. "If you were killed, maybe the public outcry would be so bad in America that the Jews would be forced to stop these attacks."

When I volunteered that the Bush administration cared little for journalists, let alone ones who reported from Hezbollah territory, he shrugged. "Maybe if it was an American bomb used by the Israelis that killed an American journalist, they would stop this horror," he said.

The handful of people in the town include some from Hezbollah's political wing, as well as volunteers keeping an eye on things while the residents are gone. Off to the side, as we watch the Israelis pummel ridgelines on the outskirts of town, one of the political operatives explains that the fighters never come near the town, reinforcing what other Hezbollah people have told me over the years.

Although Israel targets apartments and offices because they are considered "Hezbollah" installations, the group has a clear policy of keeping its fighters away from civilians as much as possible. This is not for humanitarian reasons -- they did, after all, take over an apartment building against the protests of the landlord, knowing full well it would be bombed -- but for military ones.

"You can be a member of Hezbollah your entire life and never see a military wing fighter with a weapon," a Lebanese military intelligence official, now retired, once told me. "They do not come out with their masks off and never operate around people if they can avoid it. They're completely afraid of collaborators. They know this is what breaks the Palestinians -- no discipline and too much showing off."

Perhaps once a year, Hezbollah will hold a military parade in the south, in which its weapons and fighters appear. Media access to these parades is tightly limited and controlled. Unlike the fighters in the half dozen other countries where I have covered insurgencies, Hezbollah fighters do not like to show off for the cameras. In Iraq, with some risk taking, you can meet with and even watch the resistance guys in action. (At least you could during my last time there.) In Afghanistan, you can lunch with Taliban fighters if you're willing to walk a day or so in the mountains. In Gaza and the West Bank, the Fatah or Hamas fighter is almost ubiquitous with his mask, gun and sloganeering to convince the Western journalist of the justice of his cause.

The Hezbollah guys, on the other hand, know that letting their fighters near outsiders of any kind -- journalists or Lebanese, even Hezbollah supporters -- is stupid. In three trips over the last week to the south, where I came near enough to the fighting to hear Israeli artillery, and not just airstrikes, I saw exactly no fighters. Guys with radios with the look of Hezbollah always found me. But no fighters on corners, no invitations to watch them shoot rockets at the Zionist enemy, nothing that can be used to track them.

Even before the war, on many of my trips to the south, the Lebanese army, or the ubiquitous guy on a motorbike with a radio, would halt my trip and send me over to Tyre to get permission from a Hezbollah official before I could proceed, usually with strict limits on where I could go.

Every other journalist I know who has covered Hezbollah has had the same experience. A fellow journalist, a Lebanese who has covered them for two decades, knows only one military guy who will admit it, and he never talks or grants interviews. All he will say is, "I'll be gone for a few months for training. I'll call when I'm back." Presumably his friends and neighbors may suspect something, but no one says anything.

Hezbollah's political members say they have little or no access to the workings of the fighters. This seems to be largely true: While they obviously hear and know more than the outside world, the firewall is strong.

Israel, however, has chosen to treat the political members of Hezbollah as if they were fighters. And by targeting the civilian wing of the group, which supplies much of the humanitarian aid and social protection for the poorest people in the south, they are targeting civilians.

Earlier in the week, I stood next to a giant crater that had smashed through the highway between Tyre and Sidon -- the only route of escape for most of the people in the far south. Overhead, Israeli fighters and drones circled above the city and its outlying areas and regular blasts of bombs and naval artillery could be heard.

The crater served as a nice place to check up on the refugees, who were forced by the crater to slow down long enough to be asked questions. They barely stopped, their faces wrenched in near panic. The main wave of refugees out of the south had come the previous two days, so these were the hard-luck cases, the people who had been really close to the fighting and who needed two days just to get to Tyre, or who had had to make the tough decision whether to flee or stay put, with neither choice looking good.

The roads in the south are full of the cars of people who chose wrong -- burned-out chassis, broken glass, some cars driven straight into posts or ditches. Other seem to have broken down or run out of gas on the long dirt detours around the blown-out highway and bridge network the Israeli air force had spent days methodically destroying even as it warned people to flee.

One man, slowing his car around the crater, almost screams, "There is nothing left. This country is not for us." His brief pause immediately draws horns and impatient yells from the people in the cars behind him. They pass the crater but within two minutes a large explosion behind us, north, in the direction of Sidon, rocks us.

As we drive south toward Tyre, we soon pass a new series of scars on the highway: shrapnel, hubcaps and broken glass. A car that had been maybe five minutes ahead of us was hit by an Israeli shell. Three of its passengers were wounded, and it was heading north to the Hammound hospital at Sidon. We turned around because of the attack and followed the car to Sidon. Those unhurt staked out the parking lot of the hospital, looking for the Western journalists they were convinced had called in the strike. Luckily my Iraqi fixer smelled trouble and we got out of there. Probably nothing would have happened -- mostly they were just freaked-out country people who didn't like the coincidence of an Israeli attack and a car full of journalists driving past.

So the analysts talking on cable news about Hezbollah "hiding within the civilian population" clearly have spent little time if any in the south Lebanon war zone and don't know what they're talking about. Hezbollah doesn't trust the civilian population and has worked very hard to evacuate as much of it as possible from the battlefield. And this is why they fight so well -- with no one to spy on them, they have lots of chances to take the Israel Defense Forces by surprise, as they have by continuing to fire rockets and punish every Israeli ground incursion.

And the civilians? They see themselves as targeted regardless of their affiliation. They are enraged at Israel and at the United States, the only two countries on earth not calling for an immediate cease-fire. Lebanese of all persuasions think the United States and Israel believe that Lebanese lives are cheaper than Israeli ones. And many are now saying that they want to fight.

http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/fairenough/salon025.html
 

741467

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withoutaface said:
Also I think from the situation where more than 800 Israelis die from Islamic suicide bombings each year would make it clear that religion does indeed create death.


Also I'm curious as to how you come to the conclusion that the Israeli government is the agressor, given Hezbollah's aim is to destory Israel (as Israel withdrew from Southern Lebanon six years ago), and that the whole thing was started when Hezbollah made an unauthorised incursion onto Israeli turf and kidnapped Israeli personnel. Also keep in mind that Israel wants to have a ceasefire, but Hezbollah (as an extra-governmental force) won't agree to disarm, and if their reason is because they want to defend Lebanon they could easily just choose to sell their equipment to/become answerable to the Lebanese military, thus handing the monopoly on legitimate use of force back to the Lebanese government and allowing it to determine its own affairs, as is the right of any democractically elected government.

if u want to know about islam.. study ISLAM not the MUSLIMS


seems like u dont really have a good memory
think before the last 26 days
before this whole thing started
the reason they took those soldiers was to get back the lebanese ppl in the israeli prisons..
not to start a war
this happened before and they exchanged soldiers for prisonsers
 

syera

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741467 said:
if u want to know about islam.. study ISLAM not the MUSLIMS
seems like u dont really have a good memory
think before the last 26 days
before this whole thing started
the reason they took those soldiers was to get back the lebanese ppl in the israeli prisons..
not to start a war
this happened before and they exchanged soldiers for prisonsers
its a shame most people don't seem to understand that, but just jump to conclusions.
***related to what you said and this thread in general is this:
An interview on skynews with a British MP - very interesting.
(everyone) Watch this, if you already havent!!
 

HotShot

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Nolanistic said:
ur gud mate.. gud posts....

gee and i wonder why i dont like jews.....


ONCE AGAIN.. whether hezbollah are hiding in civilian sectors or not is really irrelevant cos:

WE ALL AGREE THEY ARE TERRORISTS....

THE QUESTION OF ISSUE HERE IS WAT IS ISRAEL?... bombing the civilians.. are they terrorists?
 

withoutaface

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741467 said:
if u want to know about islam.. study ISLAM not the MUSLIMS


seems like u dont really have a good memory
think before the last 26 days
before this whole thing started
the reason they took those soldiers was to get back the lebanese ppl in the israeli prisons..
not to start a war
this happened before and they exchanged soldiers for prisonsers
Did the Israelis just round up random Lebanese people, or were these people taken up for acts they had committed? Because unless it's the former there's really no means for comparison between the acts.

Once again, there's no valid reason for an extra governmental organisation to own missile trucks.
 

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withoutaface said:
Also I think from the situation where more than 800 Israelis die from Islamic suicide bombings each year would make it clear that religion does indeed create death.
Last time I checked, the suicide bombings were because of the occupation? :confused:
 

tempco

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withoutaface said:
Occupation of what?
Of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip? All settlements there are illegal according to UN resolutions 242 and 388 and the Fourth Geneva Convention - Section III - Article 49 which states 'The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.'
 
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Jordan.J

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Nolanistic said:
No she's a fucking evil, evil, evil, evil, dirty whore, but she lists a stack of terrorist attacks by fundamentalist muhammadeans.

That's why.
I dont know what this has to do with this thread, but so what?

Do you want me list the names of muslims who havnt commited a terrorist attack

and btw, muslims were killed in those terrorists attacks she listed
 

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tempco said:
Of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip? All settlements there are illegal according to UN resolutions 242 and 388 and the Fourth Geneva Convention - Section III - Article 49 which states 'The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.'
Hmm those same resolutions seem to state that israel is entitled to hold all territory acquired in 1967 until a durable and fair peace is achieved.
even the Oslo Accords permit Jewish settlement in the West Bank and Gaza.
(and even then israel removed its settlers!)
 

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