James Ruse are cheaters and the BOS do not care. (2 Viewers)

[critiek]

Not all selective school recieve preferential treatment I am merely making the point that the BOS seems to cast a blind eye over what JR does in term of breaking the BOS' own policies

 

[middlemarch]

they will cain you all in the externals if you insist on posting...build a bridge and struggle over it

Ugh! You're right. I'm wasting way too much time when I could be studying.

 

[Ragerunner]

I understand that James Ruse is a highly talented school with many bright minds but because they are the posterchildren for the BOS it does not mean that the have the right be have an advantage by having a significantly longer time to learn the same course as everyone else.

Sure many of them do harder subjects but that's not a reason for them to have a longer time to learn them.

I am not aware of the inner working of the BOS but I think option A would be a good start. Some may think that they are being held back, but how? They choose harder subjects which the BOS has set an appropriate syllabus for. However I think that this only becomes an issue in Senior school when competition is very real and it is important for all school to have an equal footing for the very important year ahead!

What are your thoughts ragerunner?

First off, in reality, they don't exactly teach ahead of the syllabus for everything. Maths they definitely do. Other subjects they do not. E.g.

James Ruse student wants to legal studies as a subject.
The student is in year 9/10 (as you said).

Obviously they aren't able to officially take a HSC subject in year 9/10. Unless they are accelerating which requires official board of studies acceptance to do it.

So, unless that student blows into classes he isn't supposed to be in, or learns by himself, it's not really unfair because even James Ruse won't allow a year 9/10 student take a subject such as legal studies without permission. (Hope that didn't sound confusing).

Now lets talk about maths. I know that they teach way ahead of the syllabus. My opinion on this is because they can. Maths is something that flows in. That is, it's something you learn through your schooling years. Because the students are so smart, they are able to grasp the concepts very easily. And it's something that they have been learning for ages. If that student takes legal studies as his subject, it is most likely he will have no prior knowledge on it beforehand. So it's not something that James Ruse can teach 'ahead' of everyone else.

Maths is the only exception that comes to mind. But if they do the same for other subjects that flows in from past learning (another e.g. being writing english essays), I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[Ragerunner]

I just realised I didn't really even answer your question.

I'm mainly unsure what you mean by 'hard subject's'.

Say a JR student wants to do Business Studies, it's either Business Studies or nothing. There isn't anything 'harder' that the Board of Studies have available for them to do.

 

[critiek]

Yes I am mainly referring to maths here. I know what you mean but here is an example

The JR maths classes learnt some HSC topics even before the prescribed Prelim ones, I don't see how that should be allowed. Maths is a flowing subject which opens more opportunities as more is learnt but they can offer more challenging questions instead of racing through and getting into the guts of the HSC topics as fast as they can even though it is not allowed through the BOS

 

[critiek]

I was referring to harder subject which are traditionally orientated towards selective schools, Extension 2 maths is what comes to mind first.

Sorry if this is unclear but it is rather late and I've been working on English reasearch for the past few hours.

 

[middlemarch]

First off, in reality, they don't exactly teach ahead of the syllabus for everything. Maths they definitely do. Other subjects they do not. E.g.

James Ruse student wants to legal studies as a subject.
The student is in year 9/10 (as you said).

Obviously they aren't able to officially take a HSC subject in year 9/10. Unless they are accelerating which requires official board of studies acceptance to do it.

So, unless that student blows into classes he isn't supposed to be in, or learns by himself, it's not really unfair because even James Ruse won't allow a year 9/10 student take a subject such as legal studies without permission. (Hope that didn't sound confusing).

Now lets talk about maths. I know that they teach way ahead of the syllabus. My opinion on this is because they can. Maths is something that flows in. That is, it's something you learn through your schooling years. Because the students are so smart, they are able to grasp the concepts very easily. And it's something that they have been learning for ages. If that student takes legal studies as his subject, it is most likely he will have no prior knowledge on it beforehand. So it's not something that James Ruse can teach 'ahead' of everyone else.

Maths is the only exception that comes to mind. But if they do the same for other subjects that flows in from past learning (another e.g. being writing english essays), I wouldn't be surprised.

Yep, I see your point. But I agree with critiek. There are other ways of challenging them than teaching ahead...or getting the chance to study for a subject over two years where as everybody else gets only one year to cover the same amount of work.

 

[seremify007]

What about tutoring centres which teach stuff ahead? What about people who happen to read stuff on their own accord on the net such as on BoredofStudies?

As for accelerating- alot of schools have accelerating programs... yes I agree it's unfair because it means they have alot less pressure in yr12 when doing the HSC; but I don't see any problem with learning some higher level knowledge in younger years...

 

[Ragerunner]

That may be true to some extent, but lets take a travel back to year 9/10.

e.g. I remember thats when I started learning y = mx + b

Now really, you can't teach/offer anything more challenging other than extending their knowledge on that topic, and then giving challenging questions. But to do that, you have to teach the topics offered by the HSC.

So in a way, what you proposed is already in relation to teaching the HSC course (to some extent).

 

[middlemarch]

That may be true to some extent, but lets take a travel back to year 9/10.

e.g. I remember thats when I started learning y = mx + b

Now really, you can't teach/offer anything more challenging other than extending their knowledge on that topic, and then giving challenging questions. But to do that, you have to teach the topics offered by the HSC.

So in a way, what you proposed is already in relation to teaching the HSC course (to some extent).

But, there's a long way between y=mx+b and z = x + iy (which is one of the easiest 4u topics, anyway).

 

[xeia]

look, I go to Ruse, and I'm sick of people acting like the only way we do well is because we are a bunch of cheats/ liars/ its all some weird conspiracy. All the people in my grade work BLOODY HARD to get the marks we do. As for this whole accelerating thing, I don't know what you're talking about. I know the english teachers, in particular, were very careful not to teach anything remotely HSC-related until day one of term four in year 11. As for maths, how can you possibly NOT accelerate some things? like, "oh, trigonometry is in the HSC syllabus, so we can't learn it until year 11"? And i know I never learned anything four unit maths until i was in year 12. I think you all need to stop dissing ruse ppl

 

[critiek]

I definately want the able to excel but there are limits which the BOS has set to ensure fairness.

Sorry but i do not understand your examble with y=mx + b, how is offering challenging questions for simple co-ordinate geometry extending into the HSC? Sorry again, it may be due to a dying mind

 

[Ragerunner]

That was just an example. Plus they actually do not teach z = x + iy earlier than year 10. (not every James Ruse student does extension 2 maths you know?)

My 'guess' is they teach the 2U maths course as fast as they can.

But yeah, in most year 9/10 maths subjects, it's really hard to find challenging questions, unless you learn a bit more about the topic so there is a wider range of challenging questions to ask.

 

[ogmzergrush]

Seriously, are you guys sure you're not letting your competitive spirits get in the way of your appreciation for education? If kids are capable of learning, then they should be filled to bursting point with knowledge, and then some more just for good measure.

I realise that everyone wants to do the best they can in the exams, and hopefully wants to learn as much as they can while they're at school too (Much more important than just the HSC), but it goes both ways. If people are being held back from reaching their full potential by the syllabus then I'm all for teaching the them ahead of it (As individuals, or as a group if the ENTIRE group is up for it). Each and every student should be allowed to reach their full potential, and why not? Is there really any good reason for hobbling gifted students anywhere other than to keep them in line with the masses?

If it's only happening at Ruse then perhaps this is an issue, but I'm far from convinced that it is. I'm sure gifted students elsewhere as individuals get to cover extra material with the aid of their teachers, and if it's done on an individual level it'd be because doing so as a group would disadvantage those in the class who just aren't that far along yet.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Personally I do see it as cheating, but it's not just james ruse that does it.
The International Baccalaureate is also a way to cheat

 

[Bookie]

People whinge too much.

Let Ruse go.

They dont do anything other than study anyway, they'll get nowhere.

 

[middlemarch]

That was just an example. Plus they actually do not teach z = x + iy earlier than year 10. (not every James Ruse student does extension 2 maths you know?)

My 'guess' is they teach the 2U maths course as fast as they can.

But yeah, in most year 9/10 maths subjects, it's really hard to find challenging questions, unless you learn a bit more about the topic so there is a wider range of challenging questions to ask.

I don't really know to what extent they work ahead. I just went by on what was said about kids doing stuff in yr9 that was taught to everbody else in yr12. I said it earlier... clear me up if I'm assuming anything wrong anywhere...I guess i just jumped too ahead of myself then.

 

[Ragerunner]

I definately want the able to excel but there are limits which the BOS has set to ensure fairness.

Sorry but i do not understand your examble with y=mx + b, how is offering challenging questions for simple co-ordinate geometry extending into the HSC? Sorry again, it may be due to a dying mind

Lets say a student is taught the topic on 'equations' in year 9/10. They learn linear equations The student is now fully proficient in it. Next, they learn about absolute values in equations. Now they are fully proficient in it.

To be able to ask more challenging questions, the student needs to know more about the topic on equations. As such, they will then have to learn about simutaneous equations, inequations, etc.. (Prelim/HSC course material).

Now, you really can't ask a student a challenging question based on year 9/10 material such as linear equations? I doubt it can really get much harder.

 

[seremify007]

I didn't know JR offered BS- in my sister's time they didn't. She had to study it herself on her own when she was in uni.

Yes I am mainly referring to maths here. I know what you mean but here is an example

The JR maths classes learnt some HSC topics even before the prescribed Prelim ones, I don't see how that should be allowed. Maths is a flowing subject which opens more opportunities as more is learnt but they can offer more challenging questions instead of racing through and getting into the guts of the HSC topics as fast as they can even though it is not allowed through the BOS

Not every school follows the order specified by the BoS for the HSC course... I mean in my school our 3u class is the same for 2u and 3u, and the school in general I think rearranges the order of topics that we study. Like some topics make sense to be taught together rather than being split up- and I'm too lazy to think of any examples because my Maths HSC is over!! Sorry =P

 

[Raginsheep]

There's nothing wrong with learning out of school. In that situation, if the individual wants to spend his/hers time doing that rather than going out into the sun, its fine. I think the issue here is whether a school should teach HSC topics to yr 9/10s during normal school time. Is it fair that a student has 2yrs to master 4u polynomials where as another student only has the 4 terms, probably less, to master it simply because the second student didn't attend a certain school?

I appreciate the necessity to stimulate talented students however, there are options avaliable other than teaching them HSC content.

Also, while JR clearly has a lot of capable students who are able to handle the higher level work, surely students other top schools in NSW are also be capable enough and so why don't their school do what JR does?