Michael Moore's Open Letter To George Bush (1 Viewer)

[supercharged]

So that means you take offence at news items then?

I didn't say anything about YOU killing or rapeing anyone. I'm just saying what has ALREADY happened in New Orleans (it's a fact that survivors were killed and raped by each other, and the relief effort was shit. I didn't make it up). If you choose to be offended by that then its not my problem.

The thing is, you said that could happen anywhere. While yes, it 'could' physically happen anywhere, there are no examples of this happening anywhere to date, especially in a developed country (not Haiti or someplace like that).

 

[spell check]

You really are bordering on racism here. I take offence. I'm an American. I feel that you are implying that because I'm an American I am more likely to kill or rape someone in times of disaster.

uh i don't think "american" is a race

 

[supercharged]

"American" is not a race unless you are a native American Indian. Otherwise it's a nationality, not a racial group.

 

[Generator]

uh i don't think "american" is a race

Yet that hasn't stopped others criticising the Yanks as though they happen to be a distinct racial group, has it?

 

[jellybeenz]

The relief effort could be shit anywhere. If you acknowledge that then you acknowledge that humans anywhere can act like that. It happened in America and horrible flaws were revealed in their infrastructure, let it be a lesson to everyone that countries must have clear disaster plans. I completely feel as though you were attacking the people, not just the flood relief.

The little comments that this has never happened anywhere else and that you don;t think it could-- these imply that there is something wrong with Americans. For all we know South Korea's disaster plan could fail and the same thing could happen. Just because it first happened in America, it doesnt mean it doesnt have the potential to happen anywhere else.

 

[supercharged]

The relief effort could be shit anywhere. If you acknowledge that then you acknowledge that humans anywhere can act like that. It happened in America and horrible flaws were revealed in their infrastructure, let it be a lesson to everyone that countries must have clear disaster plans. I completely feel as though you were attacking the people, not just the flood relief.

The little comments that this has never happened anywhere else and that you don;t think it could-- these imply that there is something wrong with Americans. For all we know South Korea's disaster plan could fail and the same thing could happen. Just because it first happened in America, it doesnt mean it doesnt have the potential to happen anywhere else.

Ok let me clarify, yeah sure inept flood relief could happen anywhere (although those places I mentioned in East Asia handled it well). And I'm sure some countries have bungled their relief efforts before.

As for survivors, troops and rescuers attacking or being attacked by each other in the aftermath, well that hasn't happened in any known developed or semi-developed countries till in New Orleans.

Wait a few days and lets see if South Korea get thrown into the same chaos...

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I think more authoritarian governments probably would be better able to get people out of a city than governments which allow people to excercise their choice.

As for survivors, troops and rescuers attacking or being attacked by each other in the aftermath

No I think you'll find there are many examples of cities becomming lawless after a major disaster.

 

[supercharged]

Well actually New Orleans is currently in the process of being evacutated by force now. Smart thing to do would be to of done it back when it mattered.

And how about a media source on another city in a developed country turning to widespread anarchy after a natural disaster like in New Orleans (including rescue workers fired upon)?

 

[Spikeru]

Moore is a facist, left wing idiot, who is fat.
Bush is a mentally deficient, right wing buisness puppet, who is thinner.

I hate them both, I hope they die.

 

[walrusbear]

Moore is a facist, left wing idiot, who is fat.
Bush is a mentally deficient, right wing buisness puppet, who is thinner.

I hate them both, I hope they die.

how is moore a facist (sic)?

 

[jennylim]

supercharged, i don't get where you're coming from. or i do - i just don't like/agree with it. are you saying that americans as people are deficient in intelligence/moral fibre in comparison with the wonderfully efficient chinese?

because if you're not, you're doing a really good impression of it.

it is ridiculous to make blanket assumptions about communities (or nationalities) after a single event. katrina, i believe, exacerbated socio-economic problems already in new orleans and drove people to desperation and despair in its wake. the failure of the military to organise the stuff in time left a week or so for the people to vent their rage/frustration and try to keep themselves alive by eating food (that they stole).

as for the general lawlessness, it makes me think of lord of the flies...take away the rules and people in general go crazy.

china, as ntb pointed out, is an authoritarian government (verging on dictatorship but that's a different story) which is far more efficient at ordering people to do stuff (disobey us, we shoot you). besides chinese people are capable of chaos, too - if tiananmen does not convince you, does the cultural revolution? you can't see the pertinence of bringing this up...i'll tell you.

your discussion appears to be about the chinese PEOPLE vs the american PEOPLE. which group is more superior? and in my opinion, neither. a certain group of americans showed they could descend into utter chaos and anarchy. and a huge group of chinese showed they could do the same.

conclusion: shut up or come up with a better argument.

 

[jellybeenz]

Jennylim, That is what I unsuccessfully tried to convey in my posts last night. It was late, I was tired. Then he started talking about cannabilism.

 

[Xayma]

Well actually New Orleans is currently in the process of being evacutated by force now. Smart thing to do would be to of done it back when it mattered.

And how about a media source on another city in a developed country turning to widespread anarchy after a natural disaster like in New Orleans (including rescue workers fired upon)?

Now you qualified it to a developed country. Way to rule out any comparisons with China or anything.

When was the last time a natural disaster of this scale occured in a major city in a developed country?

 

[tempco]

i'm sure you wouldn't be able to break into a sports store and grab yourself some fine weapons and ammunition in china though.

 

[supercharged]

Now you qualified it to a developed country. Way to rule out any comparisons with China or anything.

When was the last time a natural disaster of this scale occured in a major city in a developed country?

Part of the reason that it reached this scale was due to man made factors (lack of evacutation, slow rescue response etc), major hurricanes, floods and other natural disasters happen all the time in developed and undeveloped countries. How about cyclone tracy hitting Australia in 84 then? or cyclone Talim which happened at the same time as Katrina?

Poorer countries that got hit by the Boxing day tsunami managed it better than New Orleans. They didn't have law and order issues in the aftermath despite their greater poverty. Which goes to show all this BS about poverty resulting in chaos in New Orleans is rubbish.

it is ridiculous to make blanket assumptions about communities (or nationalities) after a single event. katrina, i believe, exacerbated socio-economic problems already in new orleans and drove people to desperation and despair in its wake. the failure of the military to organise the stuff in time left a week or so for the people to vent their rage/frustration and try to keep themselves alive by eating food (that they stole).

as for the general lawlessness, it makes me think of lord of the flies...take away the rules and people in general go crazy.

You can say what you want about modern societies going lawless and killing or rapeing each other New Orleans style, after a natural disaster as being 'normal', instead of helping each other out, BUT come on give me some other examples of this happening in recent history! it's not very convincing to say 'oh it happens all the time but damn, I can't come up with a single example so I'll resort to lord of the flies'

 

[Comrade nathan]

It would be interesting to compare how China dealt with the disaster, how their citizens reacted to the disaster with how the US dealt and reacted.

Though you can't tell anything from pictures.

 

[jellybeenz]

What are you implying in pointing out that the US is the only country to react in this way? I'm just curious. Whats the point you are making?

 

[jennylim]

you haven't addressed the question, supercharged. it is this:

are you or are you not trying to say that americans are inferior people to every other race in the whole entire world, simply because of one incident in one city in one state in the whole country?

because if you are, it is a really, really stupid thing to say. in fact, i find it abhorrent. it's all fine to criticise america's response (because that is pretty shit) but it is not fine to make judgments on the american people. it is an interesting reflection of human nature, certainly, but not a good enough example to condemn all americans, you dickhead.

there may not have been raping, killing and pillaging in sri lanka and other tsunami countries (although who's to tell? the media's not as big there as it is in new orleans) but there certainly were people trying to capture orphans and sell them into prostitution or other slave labour. that, in my opinion, is equally sick.

 

[supercharged]

Lets take a look a some other recent hurricanes shall we?

Typhoon Talim blows over Taiwan

Forecasters had warned the typhoon could cause severe damage
Typhoon Talim has passed over the island of Taiwan, felling billboards and trees and smashing windows.
At least one person was killed and 24 injured as winds and rain lashed the mountainous, densely-populated island.

Schools, public buildings and financial markets remained closed, amid warnings that heavy rainfall could still cause landslides and flooding.

Typhoon Talim is now en route to south-east China, with sustained winds of up to 144 km/h (90 mph).

Most air and land traffic in Taiwan is expected to return to normal later on Thursday, but weather experts predict that strong winds and rains will continue in central and southern areas.

Some residents of coastal areas have been evacuated in anticipation of the typhoon, the China Daily newspaper reported.

'Dangerous'

By mid-morning local time on Thursday, the storm was centred over the Taiwan Strait, about 60km (37 miles) from the city of Taichung in central Taiwan.

The worst of the storm had passed by the time people woke up in the city of Taipei.

A taxi driver told the Reuters news agency that fierce winds and torrential rain had made driving dangerous during the night.

"I heard a loud bang and saw scaffolding had crashed into the street right next to my car. It was a close shave," he said.

An elderly man is reported to have drowned during the storm after slipping into a pond, according to Taiwan's Disaster Relief Centre.

An express train from Kaohsiung city to Taipei was cancelled after one of its windows was shattered by a falling signpost.

Nine people - eight prisoners and a policeman - were hurt when the van they were travelling in hit a road barrier.

Talim had earlier been classed as a category 4 storm out of a five-level ranking, with five being the strongest.

Typhoons and tropical storms often hit the island between June and September.

Last August, an entire village was buried in northern Hsinchu county when Typhoon Aere struck, killing 24 people.

Typhoon Haitang reaches SE China

Thousands of people in the storm's path have been evacuated
A powerful typhoon has hit the south-eastern coast of China, hours after battering Taiwan, where it caused the deaths of four people.
More than 800,000 people have been evacuated from the provinces of Fujian and Zhejiang.

Typhoon Haitang slowed as it approached mainland China.

But the first big storm of the season was still packing winds of up to 119km/h (74 mph) when it made landfall, Chinese meteorologists said.

Four people were killed and nearly 60 others were injured when Typhoon Haitang hit Taiwan on Monday.

Millions of dollars' worth of flood and storm damage was also reported.

Dozens die as typhoon hits China

The storm sent flash floods surging through city streets
At least 54 people have died in China because of flooding and landslides triggered by Typhoon Talim.
About 40 died in the province of Anhui when Talim made landfall on Thursday, and 14 died in the city of Wenzhou, China's Xinhua news agency reported.

Some 400,000 people were affected by the storm, which caused an estimated $877m (£476m) worth of damage.

The weakening storm hit China on Thursday after killing two people and injuring dozens in Taiwan.

By Saturday Talim had weakened to a tropical storm as it moved further inland.

Homes damaged

More than 100,000 people had been evacuated from their homes in Anhui, with 400,000 people in the province affected by the storm.

Up to a million people were moved from low-lying coastal flood plains in Zhejiang and Fujian provinces, Xinhua said.

At least 23 people were listed as missing after heavy wind and rain flooded roads, knocked down power lines and set off landslides.

In one mountainous rural area, mudslides buried two buildings with 11 people still inside.

One died before rescue teams arrived, while five others were hurt.

Almost 12,000 homes were damaged in the south-eastern coastal city of Wenzhou, in Zhejiang province, Xinhua said.

Serious flooding throughout southern and eastern China this summer has killed more than 1,000 people and left hundreds missing, presumed dead.

Strong typhoons regularly hit Asian nations along the western edge of the Pacific Ocean throughout the summer months.

Typhoon Nabi, a separate storm heading towards Japan, weakened on Sunday to a category three typhoon. It was expected to weaken further before hitting the southern island of Kyushu.

Storm Nabi batters north Japan

Most of Nabi's victims died in landslides
Tropical storm Nabi has lashed northern Japan, after causing at least 18 deaths across the country.
The storm brought winds of up to 90km/h (56mph) and severe rain to the northern island of Hokkaido on Thursday.

It hit Kyushu island as a typhoon on Tuesday, with winds of 126km/h (78mph), but weakened as it moved north.

Nabi bypassed Japan's main population centres but left floods and landslides behind it. It also brought flooding to parts of South Korea.

One person was missing after being swept away near Ulsan, 410km (255 miles) southeast of Seoul.

In Japan, nine people are missing and more than 140 injured.

Nearly 1,000 houses in the south and west of the country have been destroyed or damaged, and thousands have been flooded, the Fire and Disaster Management Agency said.


About 700 schools have been closed in Hokkaido and 1,700 homes suffered power cuts overnight - although electricity has now largely been restored, AP news agency reports.

The storm brought severe disruption to some of Japan's transport systems.

About 20,000 air passengers had their flights cancelled on Tuesday, and another 12,000 on Wednesday.

The storm came in the wake of Typhoon Talim, which battered Taiwan and China last week.

Hey the hurricanes have killed some people and destroyed property but no mention of violence or chaos among the surviviors in these places, looks like New Orleans style anarchy isn't that 'normal' elsewhere afterall.

 

[jennylim]

just making a double post to point out to supercharged that his post is riddled with fallacies. i mean, we all knew that already, but it doesn't seem to have hit home.

for example: comparing two isolated events through images and without substantial analysis of the varying situations is not a highly effective way of making an assessment about the general moral fibre of each nationality. he appears to think that inference is really fantastic, and that he is a genius for picking it up.

or the fact that he appears to think that one incident is enough for him to make a blanket judgment about americans in general: oh, they are morally degenerate scum who all wish to rape, pillage, kill and burn, but simply don't have enough of a chance. bullshit. there isn't sufficient data to make such a comment.

you only need one decent american to disprove his fucking retarded argument.

you've got it the wrong way round, supercharged: it's not up to us to find other examples of degeneration into lawlessness to show that americans are similar people to everyone else in the world. it's up to YOU to prove that every american is like this in order to substantiate the claims made through your flimsy inferences. YOU'RE the one making the stupid generalisations...YOU'RE the one that should back them up. not vice versa.



pwn3d.