withoutaface
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I'm Australian and I hate a lot of Australian media outlets, I'd imagine it'd be the same with the Danes.
thats offensive and potentially villifying a group, so i trust you'll appologise, right?HotShot said:Too true, dont get me started on jews..
its not a right of freedom of speech if you then say "well, you have freedom, but you're not allow to use it". It also explains a WHOLE lot that you don't know what democracy is. Its a form of gov't, which'd have nothing to do with respecting beliefs, or even dealing with them. Its the idea that gov't decisions are made by a vote of the people. Most decisions come from representative democracy, where we elect someone that then makes said decisions for us. Now, in a free society, which is the other part of this, and the part that's relevant, the idea is that everyone is more or less free to have their own viewpoints and speak freely about them. You don't have to respect them. Do you mean you respect those that feel minorities are inferior, or that women are inferior, or that the moon is made of cheese, or anything? You have to allow them to say things, you don't have to respect them, or even tolerate them.HotShot said:according to democracy, you have to respect other people's belief. whether it be religion or whatever.
The questions that arises is, what is the purpose of this cartoon? clearly the purpose changed (if it had any prupose initiall), to suggest that the media had right of speech - doesnt anybody.
Having the right of speech doesnt mean u can say anything, u must the respect that rite and it shouldnt be used to abuse anyone.
ok, since you directed that sum-up of a viewpoint to me, please quote where i've been acting like everyone is a radical psycho. and, they're not 'freedom fighters'...the cartoons, might well have been in bad taste, but the counter is "see, gov't should censor" and THAT is why the cartoonists are being backed. If the ONLY objections were directed to the paper and kept civilly, then that would be very different. though they never did label a billion people as terrorists. thats a misrepresntation of the cartoon.SimpsonFreak said:well then stop acting like anyone on this thread is a radical psycho, i havent met anyone like this on this forum, yet you seem to treat everyone like that.
all the shit the terrorists have done, and all the violent protests by the radicals or close minded (like syrians who see this as a war declaration) are carried out by a small percentage of over a billion muslims.
however that cartoon has insulted over a billion, not just the small radical percentage....there are now many who never supported Bin Laden, but will sympathize with them because of the cartoon, Free Speech does not involve irresponsible and reckless propaganda and provocation, amongst the violence the cartoonists are the lesser of 2 evils, but why are you people passing them off as freedom fighters, you are doing the same thing as the terrorists who call those dumbasses that blow themselves up...MARTYRS, HEROES
stop pretending this is simply about free speech, when you have done wrong, we try to defend ourselves, and the after the ignorance of those cartoonists they still try to come off as if they bare no responsibility when labelling a billion people as terrorists
and now, what happens if you write it down? is that suddenly a problem? what is the difference between saying something publicly outloud and saying something publicly in print? and again, the issue with the responce is that they're arguing that censorship is right, not just that they're complaining to the paperHotShot said:Nope, the right to express your opinion has it limits and there is way to express it. Why do you need to express your opinions on a newspaper? when you can talk about it to your friend.
As i said before, the 'right of freedom of speech' is an excuse. IF they have that right, then so do the muslims, and they are now showing their opinions. And according to you its acceptable.
it is important to remember china, historically known for making sure taht information is open and free from government interference.Simpson_Freak said:for more unbiased news (well on this topic anyway) you should go for something like russian or chinese
yeah, but see, when that happens (a radio host got in trouble when a comment he said about how if you aborted all black babies, there'd be less crime, but that doesn't mean you should and the first part he got criticised for. the station took action because they got a number of complaints. no gov't involved) then there are ways that its taken care of without bringing gov't into it, or riotsSimpson_Freak said:labelling a billion muslims as a terrorist, is as outrageous as calling all african americans convicts because a high percentage of them in the US are in prison,
whats causing people to see muslims as a terrorist group, a paper running cartoons, or the RESPONSE that is hppening here? and secondly, i think religion has caused much chaos....does taht mean we can restrict religion because why should it really cause such chaos?Simpson_Freak said:ultimately that cartoon has created more terrorist sympathizers, and more people who see a billion people as a terrorist group, why should free speech cause such chaos?
You're villifing a whole group there by the actions of a portion of that group. Just so you're aware.Simpson_Freak said:and why shudnt i compare, many didnt like the way aborigenes burned the australian flag on australia day, even though burning a flag is nothing compared to what the white man has done to them.
And THAT was the point their article was talking about, was if it was irrational that people wouldn't agree to draw a person because they'd fear for their lives. The fact some people get angry doesn't mean something is wrong, per se. it depends on situation. in this case, they raised an issue, which is a real one, and the attitude now seems to be just that its not allowed to be dealt with.funnybunny said:The Danish newspaper knew that it would fuel anger and violence, yet they disregarded this and continued to publish it. How can one support freedom for Denmark when it is them that really fuels this anger
so, who would YOU ask about what Danish news is like thats not danish, to get things in the proper context?funnybunny said:If you asked three people on the street about a common fact, obviously you will get the same response. This is a really stupid analogy, because Danish newspaper's actions are a controversial issue right now however the capital of Australia has not been controverisal for ages. Thus the response to the Danish newspaper question would be more subjective. Seriously, before questioning simpsonfreak's posts, you should question your own.
I always read through my posts in their entirety before posting them.garbagedump said:MoonlightSonata, did you read what you posted?
I have re-read SimpsonFreak's post and have discovered he used the word "label", which I read as "libel". I read that as a typo, so there is ambiguity in what was said. (In case you don't know, Libel is a form of defamation.) So that was what precipitated my reply.garbagedump said:SimpsonFreak never said it was illegal, rather he suggests that it is wrong and should be frowned upon.MoonlightSonata said:1. You are allowed to offend people.
2. Defamation requires the person defamed to be alive. Muhammad is dead.
See my comment above.garbagedump said:For example verbal racism is not illegal however it is not tolerated. Verbal abuses are not illegal, yet in some parts of countries and in many sports you can be fined for this. Defamation is illegal, however in no part of Simpson Freak's posts did he suggest that freedom of speech is illegal, rather he suggests it should be censored at times. Moonlightsonta, in light of your short replies, they are indeed that. You seem to be making a large assumption, that Simpson Freak thinks it is illegal, to rebutt.
Regarding my first point, my claim was that it is logically justified to object to the proposition that all black people are criminals. In contrast, it is not logical to object to the depiction of Muhammad. I made no reference to the specific cartoon you are referring to.garbagedump said:This really doesn't make any sense. If that is unreasonable, then the Danish newspaper cartoon is also unreasonable, as it gives a false view of the muslim people. Analogies do not have to be exactly the same. Of course this is religion not a race, but it also questions the freedom of speech.MoonlightSonata said:1. That is unreasonable, logically. Drawing a picture of someone is reasonable.
2. That is not analogous with the present case. This is a religion, not a race.
As I said, it depends on what cartoon you are referring to. If it is portraying all Muslims as terrorists then it is silly (but it shouldn't necessarily be censored). If it is a cartoon merely depicting Muhammad, then there is nothing wrong with that.garbagedump said:Of course it depends on the kind of politcal statement they are trying to make, but it is blatant that it is against muslims and portrays them as terrorists.MoonlightSonata said:It depends on what kind of political statement they are trying to make. It may be incorrect, but then it is just a silly cartoon. Doesn't mean it should be restricted.
Because many Muslims are deeply religious. Religion often leads people to do and believe extremely stupid things.garbagedump said:However if you think it is a "silly cartoon", then why has it caused so much violence and hatred by muslims?
Why shouldn't the Muslim community pull themselves together and do the sensible thing? Should the ideal of freedom of speech be sacrificied because of a bunch of extremists? Ideally I think not. Practically, I think we need to think carefully about it.garbagedump said:If it is such a silly cartoon, why shouldn't it be restricted to prevent riots and anger from many muslims.
Yep. Your point?garbagedump said:Of course you wouldn't because you appear to be not a religious person("This is also why I have such disdain for religion"), as a result you do not have a high regard for it.MoonlightSonata said:Not true. If Christian groups were outraged at a picture I drew of Jesus then personally I'd give them the free-speech finger as well.
1. Not really, since you are criticising an idea or practice, not a person.garbagedump said:Actually the definition for vilify is spread negative information, and that is EXACTLY what it will be doing, just as this portrayal of the muslim people.MoonlightSonata said:You wouldn't be vilifying Christians. You'd be satirising or criticising the practices of a religion. There's a difference.
1. Again, I have made no reference to the cartoon representing Muslims as terrorists. I refer to the cartoons merely depicting Muhammad.garbagedump said:This is correct. However the cartoon is also criticising the muslim people, suggesting that they are simply terrorists. Most Muslims are non-terrorsts. So is it right to call a muslim a "terrorist" if he is not, but wrong to call a gay guy "a pansy" when in fact he may be so?MoonlightSonata said:He was criticised for discriminating against a gay person. This is not the same at all. It is criticism of a religion - a belief, not the natural state of a human being.
Because freedom of speech is more important. Just because a bunch of extremists are going around being idiots doesn't mean the rest of the world should suddenly tremble in fear and sacrifice essential freedoms. Not only would that be detrimental to democracy but it would strengthen the resolve of these extremists that they can exert pressure on governments to get what they want.garbagedump said:Then why are you against the restriction of this particular cartoon, if it will prevent such violence?MoonlightSonata said:You are right, it is important to consider the practical issues of global relationships here. (This is also why I have such disdain for religion - it is the cause of so much stupidity.)
You can't very well claim that it is stupid and then not understand it. Either you don't understand it, or you do understand it and it is stupid. If you are alleging what I write is stupid then ipso facto you must know what I am saying.garbagedump said:This is stupid, what are you trying to say?MoonlightSonata said:People aren't going to do that. If they are then they are just foolish or ignorant.
If by Muslim terrorist ideas you mean the killing of innocent people without cause then those ideas obviously should be restricted. Other than that I am not sure what your point is here.garbagedump said:Of course people will do that, because they are foolish and ignorant, and . People will also cause illegal acts of terroism because they are foolish and ignorant. Why then shouldn't mulim terrorism ideas be restricted?
In this case freedom of speech is a justification. Just because you don't agree does not mean that people are "hiding" behind it.garbagedump said:Actually it is a coherent analogy. They are both hiding behind a principle (freedom of speech or anti-terroism) to justify their actions.MoonlightSonata said:That is not even a remotely coherent analogy.
Let's not draw extreme analogies here. We are not talking about a race-persecuting cult. We are not talking about a genocidal political order. We are talking about drawing a picture of Muhammad. There is nothing unreasonable about this, and the bottom line is that people should be entitled to criticise religions and their followers.garbagedump said:It seems that you are assuming that SimpsonFreak thinks that it is illegal. However it is not. He merely suggests that we should restrict such portrayals. You are using assumptions to back your arguments. Like Mary Mcalesse says, there should be certain restrictions to freedom of speech. MOons... is another user who is simply pro-freedom of speech without neccessarily looking at the consequences. What would happen if crosses were burnt on africn-american turf, the nazis allowed to march through jewish villages. Of course this is freedom of speech, however it causes such psychological terror and anger.
1. Utterly and absolutely wrong. Of course we are allowed to offend people's beliefs.HotShot said:No one has the right to offend someone's belief.
It is irrelevant that a billion people are offended. People should be allowed to criticise any religion that they want.Simpson Freak said:I dont know why so many people are trying to twist this into a battle for free speech. its not free speech when you villify a billion people.
Silly analogies. Your conclusion that they are trying to "wash their hands" rests upon the premise that something wrong has actually been done. Since you have not demonstrated that anything has been done wrong, your conclusion would automatically be rejected.Simpson Freak said:and now after such irresponsible actions, they are trying to wash their hands from what they did by simply yelling "free speech".....no different when George Bush says "9/11" or "Bin Laden" to justify spying on its own citizens.....and similarly to John Howard staying in power in last election by saying "interest rates" to scare the new home buyers...
People can criticise my non religious beliefs, which I believe in very strongly. They can also parody agnostics/atheists if they want.garbagedump said:"I read that as a typo, " Relli that destroys ur all argument doesn't it. '
Again you have no say in this "People should be allowed to criticise any religion that they want." since you do not feel how discrimmatory it is since you are not religious.
I agree 100%withoutaface said:People can criticise my non religious beliefs, which I believe in very strongly. They can also parody agnostics/atheists if they want.
You obviously haven't met Chief Justice GleesonSimpson Freak said:well lets hope emoticons are admissible in the high court
No, as I said quite clearly, it provides the reason for an ambiguity in our discussion.garbagedump said:"I read that as a typo, " Relli that destroys ur all argument doesn't it.
Firstly, that is deductively invalid. Your argument:garbagedump said:Again you have no say in this "People should be allowed to criticise any religion that they want." since you do not feel how discrimmatory it is since you are not religious.
Bro its 1, 2, 3 not 1, 2, CMoonlightSonata said:1. You claim religion should be open to criticism, whether it offends or not.
2. You are not religious, so you don't feel offended.
C. Therefore you cannot have a legitimate opinion on the issue.
Good comeback zahid bro.zahid said:Bro its 1, 2, 3 not 1, 2, C
Or it stands for conclusion.zahid said:Bro its 1, 2, 3 not 1, 2, C
I think (or at least hope) that zahid realised it was logical notation and he was just being a smart arse.davin said:that C might've also been standing for conclusion, as given two statements, then drawing a conclusion from them