Muslim People in Australia (9 Viewers)

[Not-That-Bright]

But the teachings are fair and just.

Different intepretations by different people... that's why so many muslims on this forum disagree with the interpretations given by the major muslim powers in the world.

 

[davin]

Not really, it just comes down to the people whom can 'communicate' with god (rich, powerful arseholes...) saying they had a new vision or a revelation from god. The problem with a theocracy is that it the laws are not created by the whim of the people, nor the whim of a god... but by the whim of the rich and the powerful.

ok, i meant for the general people to change it. the golden rule, "he who has the gold makes the rules" though

 

[Salima]

Different intepretations by different people... that's why so many muslims on this forum disagree with the interpretations given by the major muslim powers in the world.

Now there is no caliphate. Turkey with its Ottomans was the last one. Hence wht they do now is not counted because the aren't ruled by a caliph and it is anot a caliphate, only a prodominately muslim country for most you know?
Though this doesn't excuse thier actions, like tribe warfair.

I found out the other day that when they say orthadox muslims they mean sunni..that means me! That means most muslims are orthadox, becuase sunni is like 85%.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I don't get it, who cares? I'm just talking about a theocracy... I read your caliphate thing and I have no idea why I should care?

 

[Salima]

Then why are you here? I wanted to discuss something. I chose this beucase it's been lightly talked about before, you know in passing, but I wanted to go more indepth sort of dicsussion you know? If you don't care then don't discuss it. I don't go into threads I don't care about and say "I don't care about what you're saying". If you don't like it then don't discuss it. Go into a different thread which you like what they are discussing and discuss it there!.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I was talking to davin about a theocracy and you started talking about your thing... I didn't care. I don't see the purpose of you bringing it up, and I don't see where people have talked about it before?

You can bring up whatever you want I just have no idea what this is about.

 

[Salima]

Like I said did you read the post before Davins and why is was talking about what he was talking about? I brought aboutthe Caliphate thing. So he replied, and then you came in. Look down, and you'll see mine. and the links I made to wikipedia cause he explains stuff well. I decided to talk about this because no one had used this htread in a while and I wanted to discuss this. I already why I wanted to so. Yeh.

People have mentioned it in passing, and how all the ones now are corrupt, but they aren't caliphates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate

 

[davin]

the issues not-that-bright and i were discussing were more things that tend to happen any theocracy, regardless of which religion or how it is run

and from what you posted...it seems that the ottoman empire was not really a true caliphate, as it says they used the term for political purposes

 

[Salima]

i know but im talking about muslim state here, not everyone. could we keep it to just muslim rahter than going on tangents! since it's muslim thread. Maybeyou culd make a thread on religious states instead, and maybe add a link form here to there if you want.

I thing I definately agree with though is making girls wear the hijab. Why? Beucase they must. It says so in the holy muslim book. Cover everywhere but face and hands. Meaning hjiab. Next should not even be seen. So if you begin periods, whcich is the time when a girl must begin wearing it then they must. Though here you culd call it freedom, muslim women have more of it. I mean i call it slackening off in religious duties. but i cannot force anyone, only say hey you know wot, or try and guide them to passages and teaching so they realise it themselves. but it's thier fate, it's thier life, and thier tests. so if they don't. well that's just between them and god in the end.

 

[davin]

the thing is, though, there is no purely islamic country in the world. if you have the state pushing such laws, then you're forcing them on people that are not muslim as well, which is unfair, from my perspective.
also, no theologican, but i would think it takes away from the religious commitments someone has if they're doing so because they're forced to by the law of man rather than doing it as a show of their own deep convictions.

 

[sly fly]

the thing is, though, there is no purely islamic country in the world. if you have the state pushing such laws, then you're forcing them on people that are not muslim as well, which is unfair, from my perspective.
also, no theologican, but i would think it takes away from the religious commitments someone has if they're doing so because they're forced to by the law of man rather than doing it as a show of their own deep convictions.

Whilst I do agree that it's wrong to force Islam on non-Muslims, if an overwhelming majority in the country are Muslims, then it would be for the greater good. Plus, those who wouldn't want to follow the country's laws could just leave.

 

[Pubert]

By forcing them onto the laws, you arn't forcing them onto the religion. Non-muslims in a PROPER Islamic state are allowed to practice their religion openly and have rights over the Islamic government.

Muslims and Non-muslims lived together in harmony in Spain and Palestine before the crusades and such, (Not knowing alot about this history i will stop here), but you get my point.

 

[veterandoggy]

and from what you posted...it seems that the ottoman empire was not really a true caliphate, as it says they used the term for political purposes

the caliphate originally started off as a thing where the successing caliphate was chosen by a table of wise men after the caliphate ruling wither died or wanted to step down. after the 5th or 6th caliphate it immediately became a thing of taking oaths to a successor chosen by the caliphate. sometimes the moment he became a caliphate he would have chosen his successor, turning it into a hereditary thing similar to kings and queens, so as you can imagine, if it had gotten corrupted by about 700 AD, how could it be anywhere near correct towards the ottoman ages?

 

[withoutaface]

Whilst I do agree that it's wrong to force Islam on non-Muslims, if an overwhelming majority in the country are Muslims, then it would be for the greater good. Plus, those who wouldn't want to follow the country's laws could just leave.

Why do you need to enforce Islamic law if the Islamic majority will follow it anyway? For example if I were to move to Saudi Arabia and there were no laws against pork products, I'd still be hard pressed to find a pork chop because it wouldn't be commercially viable to sell one.

Pubert: I thought the Moors and the Catholics were constantly at war?

 

[Pubert]

As i said i don't know alot about this so i can't exactly discuss it properly. But i got this knowledge from a documentry on SBS about the spread of Islam into Europe.

 

[Salima]

Why do you need to enforce Islamic law if the Islamic majority will follow it anyway? For example if I were to move to Saudi Arabia and there were no laws against pork products, I'd still be hard pressed to find a pork chop because it wouldn't be commercially viable to sell one.

Pubert: I thought the Moors and the Catholics were constantly at war?

Just like you can't find a halal meat place in the city even though quiet a few Muslims are around this area and that. ANd no clothing stores that sell islamic based clothing. You have to go hunting round regular stores, trying to find a good skirt. When you do it's usually outrageous, more so than you'd find in the places where muslims are prominent. But islamic morals and ethics would come into law making in the country anyway, just as they do in other places. But wether you enforce it or not, it's still going to dominate. Non-Muslims are treated fairly under islamic law.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

There are so few muslims in Australia... if there really were then someone would start up a business and profit from their need for muslim clothes or whatever.

People want to make money.

 

[davin]

By forcing them onto the laws, you arn't forcing them onto the religion. Non-muslims in a PROPER Islamic state are allowed to practice their religion openly and have rights over the Islamic government.

Muslims and Non-muslims lived together in harmony in Spain and Palestine before the crusades and such, (Not knowing alot about this history i will stop here), but you get my point.

well, the idea of things like thie hijab, which are entirely religious in nature, being part of the law of a state is definitly forcing those that aren't muslim to follow the same religious practices, or at least some of the same ones. and that was what i was saying was then a gov't forcing people into religion.

and i think its wrong to create a population thats ok with such things by forcing out those that are not. its oppressive.

 

[withoutaface]

Just like you can't find a halal meat place in the city even though quiet a few Muslims are around this area and that. ANd no clothing stores that sell islamic based clothing. You have to go hunting round regular stores, trying to find a good skirt. When you do it's usually outrageous, more so than you'd find in the places where muslims are prominent. But islamic morals and ethics would come into law making in the country anyway, just as they do in other places. But wether you enforce it or not, it's still going to dominate. Non-Muslims are treated fairly under islamic law.

Would a non-Islamic woman still be stoned for adultery?

 

[sly fly]

Why do you need to enforce Islamic law if the Islamic majority will follow it anyway? For example if I were to move to Saudi Arabia and there were no laws against pork products, I'd still be hard pressed to find a pork chop because it wouldn't be commercially viable to sell one.

Pubert: I thought the Moors and the Catholics were constantly at war?

That's like saying why do you need to enforce any laws when most people are morally righteous people anyway and won't kill, steal, cheat etc. The laws need to be there and people aren't perfect, they may break them. Also, Islamic law encompasses everything, meaning the judicial system would need to be Islamic, the govt policies, education policies etc etc I didn't mean Islamic law simply in terms of no pork, no alcohol, no gambling etc enforced by sanctions.