Muslim People in Australia (4 Viewers)

[davin]

yeah, but muslim, hindu, christian, there's only a definition on belief, whereas there is the whole thing in judiasm in certain things depending on the mother's lineage and all. it IS very much similar to an ethnic group at this point

 

[HotShot]

yeah, but muslim, hindu, christian, there's only a definition on belief, whereas there is the whole thing in judiasm in certain things depending on the mother's lineage and all. it IS very much similar to an ethnic group at this point

the mother's lineage, is basically like being grown into religion. for example. john parents are christian, and so he is too, he marries another christian and thier become christian as well.. nothing different?

jew i understand ur not jew if ur mum isnt one. but think about, most religions are the same like this.

david mom is jew, so david is a jew. david marrys an african women who is a jew (her mom was jew who married an african man), then davis children are also jews, isnt it the same?

 

[Simpson Freak]

"And to try to liken any biases within Saudi media to biases in western media is just blind. The two are not at all on comparable levels."

What the hell are you talking about, if the western media showed such an accurate view of anything we wouldn't be on this thread with some morons completely lost on the whole issue.

"I also like that your entire arguement against it comes from "I heard one ex-Jew say", as that of course is an iron-clad justification."
Look i saw a documentary and I was confused since an ex-jew would know more about Judaism than ME. I always thought you could convert to it, but I keep hearing from people "I ain't sure but i heard you have to be born it"

" its possible to be that without practicing the religion"

So are you trying to say that you can be an aetheist jew?

Al-Qaeda only twists islamic doctrine to satisfy their own rationale.

"do not seem to actually oppose the extremists, but simply ignores it"
Well there's quite a lot of reasons. Heck just last week an American air strike in Pakistan killed 7 or 8 civilians for a failed attempt to kill Al-qaeda's number 2, and you will be surprised to see that people will have reservations about openly opposing a group that are against the people that have just killed your family members that were totally inocent.

 

[Simpson Freak]

"also address criticisms that the Islamic world as a whole, even if not believing the miltant elements that Al-Queda believes, do not seem to actually oppose the extremists, but simply ignores it."

Now that's a load of crap. What you expect me to get my banners ready and we rendezvous with other muslims in our secret meeting place and protest every time Al-qaeda sends out a tape or blows up a car in Iraq.

Heck in the Hajj address in Mecca where around 2 million people go yearly, the speaker told people to reject radical views of Islam. What more do you want. Similar sermons and messages are given all the time in mosques, and never anything to condone such actions.

And by saying "the islamic world" you do realise people in general have different perspectives. I mean there are some that believe that 9/11 was done by the US gov. ERGO they would ignore what Osama Bin Laden says, since they think he is just a Boogeyman not unlike Emanuel Goldstein in the George Orwille book "1984".

Heck it seems a Bin Laden tape appears whenever the Bush Administration is in trouble. Before the last election a tape appeared and viola' the polls dramatically changed. And now that Bush is under attack for spying, a handy bin laden tape saying "operations are under way" can be used to justify it all.

Ultimately, I will not go out and start protesting with my posters that i kept just in case of terrorism. If someone asks me what I think of these alleged "muslim terrorists" I will tell them that I oppose the killing of innocents.

What more does Davin want from me so i can be given the title of "opposing terrorism" that he seems to be able to give out so wisely

 

[Salima]

There are so few muslims in Australia... if there really were then someone would start up a business and profit from their need for muslim clothes or whatever.

People want to make money.

There are plenty, adn their are shops, just not really in the city I mean.

Then that is unfairly forcing Islamic traditions onto non-Islamic people.

Well Simpon said it:

The fact is when you are in another person's land you have to obey their laws

Just like foreigners do in this country, and the bali nine in Balli, Indonesia.

yeah, but muslim, hindu, christian, there's only a definition on belief, whereas there is the whole thing in judiasm in certain things depending on the mother's lineage and all. it IS very much similar to an ethnic group at this point

Jews...well...it's not really by blood is it? It's an idea that has been worked in by others, adn stuck, like propaganda. You're jewish if you choose to be. Like vetern said. If you are born into a religous family and they teach you about it, often you do begin life with that religion and belief, but it doesn't mean you can't change out of it. I just happened to be born into a family with no religious identity, adn open about it.

 

[davin]

first, on issue with the question of Jew being a religious label only or also an ethnic one, read wikipedia's articles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew?
which basicly will explain that there are differing definitions of what makes someone a Jew, and that sometimes its a religious def only, and sometiems ethnic. It is also possible to convert....I had a friend convert and move to Israel couple years back

What the hell are you talking about, if the western media showed such an accurate view of anything we wouldn't be on this thread with some morons completely lost on the whole issue.

People are still ignornant, yes, its just that the comparison was extreme....its that peopel aren't informed, period, not that there's some intent to portray muslims badly

Now that's a load of crap. What you expect me to get my banners ready and we rendezvous with other muslims in our secret meeting place and protest every time Al-qaeda sends out a tape or blows up a car in Iraq. (etc)

I do want to make clear, i did mean criticisms and criticisms alone. Not that I view that as the actual case. The issue is that this is all being viewed as a general culture clash, when really its a problem being caused by a group of extremists. The criticism, though, is based on that many are not very familiar with the western world are only familiar with Islam when it is mentioned in relation to terrorism, and that there doesn't seem to be a loud voice trying to distance most of Islam from extremists. I didn't mean for that to come off as I was saying there is neccessarily support, just that there isn't a more public distancing from the extreme views. Part of this is tied to the use of mosques for recruitment and organsiation of cells...it makes it so that it seems to be accepted, or at least tolerated, by the religion as a whole when mosques even in the western world are serving that role.

though i'm also not sure why you feel you had to use the word alleged in there. They are terrorists, they are muslim, or at minimum labelling themselves as such through a militant view of Islam, but consider themselves muslim.

 

[withoutaface]

Just like foreigners do in this country, and the bali nine in Balli, Indonesia.

At least in this country we don't have religiously motivated laws, if we did we'd have laws banning abortion, homosexuality etc. Justifying a countries laws by saying "their country, their choice" is what tends to lead to totalitarian regimes who decide that women don't deserve to have a clitoris and torture is a-ok.

 

[withoutaface]

People were angry with singapore for killing an Australian convicted of drug smuggling, but I haven't heard much of that a few weeks later. But we are still angry at countries where the laws are derived loosely from a religious foundation.

You mightn't still be pissed off at the Singaporean government, but I sure am. Ergo, redundant argument.

The whole concept is being debating since it is a religion and not all people have the same beliefs. but in that case should democratic laws not apply to communists because they don't believe in a democratic judicial system????

Because such a judicial system is what ensures the communists freedom of speech. You're not enforcing your beliefs on them, it's just that they're not forcing their beliefs on you which is their aim. They are free to determine their own destiny under a liberal, democratic system.

Heck would island natives who walk around nude be charged with indecent exposure if they took a stroll down Sydney? Why should the concept of covering the private parts being forced on a race of people who clearly have not reservations about the issue.

Hahahahahhaa I see what you did there, and personally I have no problem with people deciding to be nudists in the city streets, although hygiene problems may exist with seats/benches etc, in which case there is a legitimate utilitarian argument for banning such a practice.

I wouldn't like the way my mother would be in danger in a place like lebannon just because she doesn't feel the need to cover her hair. I would ask these alleged religious judges if that choice is not between her and God?

Exactly my point. Religious beliefs and their enforcement should fall onto the individual, not the state.

 

[mr EaZy]

I wouldn't like the way my mother would be in danger in a place like lebannon just because she doesn't feel the need to cover her hair. I would ask these alleged religious judges if that choice is not between her and God?

Exactly my point. Religious beliefs and their enforcement should fall onto the individual, not the state.

1stly, lebanon is a christian country- no one's in danger of not covering their hair- regardless of religion.

2ndly the statement of withoutaface not worth any debate because it is something we all agree upon.

islamic countries have a separation of the state and church- even though they dont even have a church based culture like the catholics do with their infaillible popes.

islamic countries have an emir ( our word admiral comes from there) and the mufti- the head of the ulemma (our word alumni comes from there)

the emir makes political decisions- the mufti makes non binding religious judgements relating to novel events in society.

but when paying the zakaat (charity) look- its between u and God. So in like saudi arabia where u dont pay tax except zakaat- that zakaat is not enforced by the authorities-

similarly no one forces u to pray

no one forces you to be a good person for that matter

the state gets involved when islamic law places parameters on things like criminal law and civil law like contracts etc.

i would have expected you all to be familiar with all this had you actually been to an islamic country and not been self righteous or . believe it or not- the issues you raise like hijabs and things like that are not the biggest issues in the islamic world- there are more meaningful issues that are being dealt with- similarly muslim womens groups in australia are working big time dealing with these issues- many of them you wouldnt have heard of because ur soo busy worrying about clitoris' - an issue i have never come across (but have heard of from athiest/anti islamic websites)


there comes a problem when the role of the amir is fused with the scholar and a gun is involved so that u have people pointing their guns at others thinking they know what islam is- when islamic law is broad and organic. some islamic countries may enforce strict measures and have religious police ( i can only think of one of such countries) but ive never been to them

furthermore- many islamic countries are run by socialist tyrannies so the argument about communists not trying to impose their values on other people doesnt really hold there- as islamic institutions in those countries are being subverted- the russians were more direct in this regard when they were in afghanistan....

dont take my word as gospel here- ive never studied islam formally... maybe im being modest- but there's soo many people out there who can talk about islam like me but claim to know everything about it- which just causes more problems for us...

 

[StGeorgeDragons]

"I wouldn't like the way my mother would be in danger in a place like lebannon just because she doesn't feel the need to cover her hair. I would ask these alleged religious judges if that choice is not between her and God? "


haha girls in lebanon covering their hair. They show alot of skin.

 

[xeuyrawp]

1stly, lebanon is a christian country

No, there has been no official or otherwise reliable collection of data in Lebanon since 1932. The pre/post Taif differentiation between Christian/non-Christian seats in governemnt do, I think, reflect a shift towards the traditional Islamic beliefs of the area.

The closest reliable info is listed here, on the CIA website. You will note that the majority (59.7%) are listed as Muslim, with only 39% as Christian. Officially, Lebanon has no official religion due to deep ingrained cultural, political, and military issues.

However, it's generally given that a Lebanese person will recognise Muslim practices, whether they are Christian, which is the main problem. Really, believing in Allah, following Allah, and going to the mosque has no effect on a person -- it's the culture that follows Islam; the 'Middle Eastern' culture, if you will. That is the problem.

 

[Simpson Freak]

No, there has been no official or otherwise reliable collection of data in Lebanon since 1932. The pre/post Taif differentiation between Christian/non-Christian seats in governemnt do, I think, reflect a shift towards the traditional Islamic beliefs of the area.

The closest reliable info is listed here, on the CIA website. You will note that the majority (59.7%) are listed as Muslim, with only 39% as Christian. Officially, Lebanon has no official religion due to deep ingrained cultural, political, and military issues.

However, it's generally given that a Lebanese person will recognise Muslim practices, whether they are Christian, which is the main problem. Really, believing in Allah, following Allah, and going to the mosque has no effect on a person -- it's the culture that follows Islam; the 'Middle Eastern' culture, if you will. That is the problem.

A great point, ultimately you will find that most of these alleged "islamic" states are either following culture and tradition or are just merely narrow mindedly viewing religion to justify their unjust actions.

I had this really long post before but something happened and it got destroyed and sent to the nether regions of the force. Netherless....can someone tell me the point of this thread now, are we just trying to rebutt the other's posts (which is nice and fun), like i think any question a non-muslim australian would want to know is answered.

anyway me bored so i will do some rebutting

"I have no problem with people deciding to be nudists in the city streets, although hygiene problems may exist with seats/benches etc, in which case there is a legitimate utilitarian argument for banning such a practice."

Thats not the point, you are arrested for indecent exposure, prolli more if you sit bare on someones table, but anyway, you would be arrested because the majority of people here do not BELIEVE that our privates should be on public display.

"They are free to determine their own destiny under a liberal, democratic system."

again that just proves that if any "islamic" states disagrees with what you say then they are going against the Quran which says "there is no compulsion in religion", in other words you cannot force someone into a religion like so many christians have tried to do throughout history and killing those who wouldn't unlike the history of islam.

"You mightn't still be pissed off at the Singaporean government, but I sure am. Ergo, redundant argument"

The world doesn't revolve around you, many believe there are worse tragedies occuring than someone being arrested and killed for breaking a countrie's law.

thats better now to eat somethin and then watch NBC TODAY then sleep wake up some time at noon to go to a mosque.

 

[withoutaface]

"I have no problem with people deciding to be nudists in the city streets, although hygiene problems may exist with seats/benches etc, in which case there is a legitimate utilitarian argument for banning such a practice."

Thats not the point, you are arrested for indecent exposure, prolli more if you sit bare on someones table, but anyway, you would be arrested because the majority of people here do not BELIEVE that our privates should be on public display.

Straw man #1. You're attacking Australia instead of the kind of society I have put forward. I never said Australia was perfect, and indeed I disagree with many of its laws.

"They are free to determine their own destiny under a liberal, democratic system."

again that just proves that if any "islamic" states disagrees with what you say then they are going against the Quran which says "there is no compulsion in religion", in other words you cannot force someone into a religion like so many christians have tried to do throughout history and killing those who wouldn't unlike the history of islam.

Straw man #2. You're deflecting criticism of Islam by attacking Christianity.

"You mightn't still be pissed off at the Singaporean government, but I sure am. Ergo, redundant argument"

The world doesn't revolve around you, many believe there are worse tragedies occuring than someone being arrested and killed for breaking a countrie's law.

Straw man #3. This argument is not about the world's beliefs, it's about me arguing mine versus yours. And I agree that there are worse things, but I'm nonetheless horrified.

 

[Simpson Freak]

Straw man #1. You're attacking Australia instead of the kind of society I have put forward. I never said Australia was perfect, and indeed I disagree with many of its laws.


Straw man #2. You're deflecting criticism of Islam by attacking Christianity.


Straw man #3. This argument is not about the world's beliefs, it's about me arguing mine versus yours. And I agree that there are worse things, but I'm nonetheless horrified.

Legolas: "You Lie"
Homer: "Why would you make up a lie like that?"
Luke Skywalker: "No that's impossible...NOOOOOOOOO"

1
I was not attacking australian society, i was using any modern society, that has laws against indecent exposure, as an example to prove that we all have the beliefs of others forced upon us. I used that analogy ages ago for a different reason because some guy asked why should adultery be a crime for a non-muslim, well the same reason why public nudity is crime for nudists and natives that wouldn't wear clothes in their homeland of ummmm Rand McNally......THEY ARE IN A COUNTRY AND MUST OBEY THEIR LAWS.

2
I am not deflecting anything, i just thought i could add it in at the end to show that for thousands of years Muslims have let christians and jews live and worship peacefully on their lands, while whenever christianity has power it tries to kill or convert the "heathen".
If you have a problem with what i said, remove the:
"like so many christians have tried to do throughout history and killing those who wouldn't unlike the history of islam. "
THE MESSAGE IS STILL THE SAME, you are just trying to disagree with me no matter what.

3
You are the one changing the topic, i never said you think the hanging of that guy was the ultimate act of evil, but i was just saying that not everybody agrees with the laws of a given country. But you can't hate singapore for the death of a drug dealer, but lots of people can find it easy to hate muslims (not saying you do or don't) just because some radical freaks think they are right to blow themselves up with little innocent kids.

clearly i was correct in my last post for asking the point of the thread, since you have just tried to deconstruct my post and find something you can use to contradict me....note: a total failure.

 

[withoutaface]

Legolas: "You Lie"
Homer: "Why would you make up a lie like that?"
Luke Skywalker: "No that's impossible...NOOOOOOOOO"

1
I was not attacking australian society, i was using any modern society, that has laws against indecent exposure, as an example to prove that we all have the beliefs of others forced upon us. I used that analogy ages ago for a different reason because some guy asked why should adultery be a crime for a non-muslim, well the same reason why public nudity is crime for nudists and natives that wouldn't wear clothes in their homeland of ummmm Rand McNally......THEY ARE IN A COUNTRY AND MUST OBEY THEIR LAWS.

Yes, all countries do it, and I disagree with such laws unless there is a concrete basis for their existence (ie by doing such an act a person would be infringing on another's liberty), but there are some countries that are more fascist about it than others. Examples include those which forbid women showing their face in public and our beloved singapore with their chewing gum laws.

2
I am not deflecting anything, i just thought i could add it in at the end to show that for thousands of years Muslims have let christians and jews live and worship peacefully on their lands, while whenever christianity has power it tries to kill or convert the "heathen".
If you have a problem with what i said, remove the:
"like so many christians have tried to do throughout history and killing those who wouldn't unlike the history of islam. "
THE MESSAGE IS STILL THE SAME, you are just trying to disagree with me no matter what.

In pure Islam beliefs are not forced onto people. Unfortunately pure Islam does not exist, and as such, whether deliberate or by accident, laws in many Islamic countries tend to enforce Islamic values onto non-Islamic people.

3
You are the one changing the topic, i never said you think the hanging of that guy was the ultimate act of evil, but i was just saying that not everybody agrees with the laws of a given country. But you can't hate singapore for the death of a drug dealer, but lots of people can find it easy to hate muslims (not saying you do or don't) just because some radical freaks think they are right to blow themselves up with little innocent kids.

I am not arguing against Islam specifically, I am arguing against any case where a state's belief system is forced upon the populous. This thread just happened to be about Islam and as such that was the example I used.

 

[davin]

aren't there areas where Chrstians are being killed based on their religion by Muslims though? I want to say Indonesia, but not sure.

 

[Simpson Freak]

aren't there areas where Chrstians are being killed based on their religion by Muslims though? I want to say Indonesia, but not sure.

I would be most curious if these alleged muslims ever read the Koran, i mean its contradictory.

WHat more can i say. i don't what they think they are doing but they are not...
"buying that stairway to heaven jesus sang of"
"that was led zepplin!"
"pff go back to your bong hippie!"

 

[Generator]

I would be most curious if these alleged muslims ever read the Koran, i mean its contradictory.

As are many of the actions of today's Christians, yet we seem to have no trouble with the Christian label in such cases.

The fact that they aren't acting in an Islamic manner is beside the point - they consider themselves to be Muslims, and you cannot just sweep the issue under the carpet by suggesting that they aren't true Muslims. Please, do all that you can to deal with the issue, because there's nothing to be gained (and much to be lost) by just dismissing it out of hand.

For the record, I'm not a fan of your prophet and his teachings, but I don't think that the comments of many are fair.

 

[Simpson Freak]

Yeh well the only reason i am calling them "not true muslims" because all these ignorant pin heads expect me to go out and protest whenever some nut decides to blow himself up allegedly in the name of God.

Apart from saying these people are narrow minded and are very selective in what doctrines of islam they pay attention to, what else do non-muslims expect from us.

I am not trying to ignore the issue, i am simply stating that there is nothing in any religious text that condones the killing of innocent civilians and children. And person who blows himself up in a mall is as contradictory as a jew having a pork feast.

and you may not be a fan of the Prophet's teachings, maybe you have gotten a different side to the story, i must admit i know more about the history of Middle Earth than his teachings, something i try to rectify, but if you have any thing you wish to ask i will try my best to answer your questions
[whoops thats not saying i know little and dont follow my religion correctly, but its just that there would be a lot of facts floating out there that i wouldnt know about]

 

[mr EaZy]

No, there has been no official or otherwise reliable collection of data in Lebanon since 1932. The pre/post Taif differentiation between Christian/non-Christian seats in governemnt do, I think, reflect a shift towards the traditional Islamic beliefs of the area.

The closest reliable info is listed here, on the CIA website. You will note that the majority (59.7%) are listed as Muslim, with only 39% as Christian. Officially, Lebanon has no official religion due to deep ingrained cultural, political, and military issues.

However, it's generally given that a Lebanese person will recognise Muslim practices, whether they are Christian, which is the main problem. Really, believing in Allah, following Allah, and going to the mosque has no effect on a person -- it's the culture that follows Islam; the 'Middle Eastern' culture, if you will. That is the problem.

The last paragraph was made by a person who has no field experience in lebanon- i got this by his expression: " it's generally given that a Lebanese person "

anyhow, that statement was incorrect.

Whilst i admit that lebanon is not a christian country, it does have a christian president- and this is required by their constitution.

returning to the subject of islamic culture and islam itself- im not going to define what islamic culture is- a simple definition is anything that is good or conforms with islamic principles.

now you have to realise that socialists and anti islamists in the region like the Baath party are against people having an islamic identity- they prefer the pan arabian identity. this means that they wish for ALL arabs to identify themselves with islam as a name and something they do once a year like fasting but essentially behave as non religious people.

Although the founder of the Baath party was a christian (Michel Aflak- an egyptian history professor) - it has nothing to do with uplifting christianity but reducing islam to cultural state rather than a state of living- its policies and members are athiestic in nature especially in its early development - they had to adapt themselves to get votes

Really, believing in Allah and going to the mosque has no effect on a person

i can see where your coming from- your understanding of islam isnt correct- but i agree with what your trying to say

saying your a muslim, or a doctor, or a genious- doesnt make it so. You dont have to be an athiest to realise that- its common sense!

The Quran is a warning for Muttaqun- not for the muslims in general- because a Muslim is a generic term for anyone who has surrendered to God.

Faith is something that is begins on the inside and is realised through action-- that is the reality of faith- and the reality of faith is not experienced in many of these countries so corrupted by external unislamic forces.

One of the first things that the Iraqi Baath party did was to kill scores of islamic scholars- because they knew that these people would be vocal in their opposition to oppression.

one chinese emperor also realsied the same thing. He killed or removed the muslim provincial governors at the time because he was rebuilding the great wall and a lot of people were dying out on the fields and didnt want any opposition from these governors. Muslims have to speak out against injustices- but as muslims we need to understand who we are and also what is going on in this world.

For moree info on muslims in china: look up the golden age of islam in china on the www!

heres a few:

http://www.famsy.com/salam/GoldenAge1004.htm

http://chinese-school.netfirms.com/Muslims.html

although i havent checked them yet

cheers