[Official Critique Thread] (3 Viewers)

[hotcocoababe]

Here's the vBulletin page about reps. I think they've been changed around a bit for these forums (only the low ones, that I can see), but it's close enough.

http://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/reputation_levels

Thanks Jhakka... thats is surely very interesting ! I didnt know much bout the rep points..... thanks for clearing it up

 

[jhakka]

Just for the sake of it, I'll put up some of my early work (which isn't any good at all).

This is from my first idea, one of the two pieces I wrote for it. Please note that it is only 2 pages and is one of my early writing attempts at something I had very litte idea about and very little passion for. It was a bit of fun. However, changing my idea completely (I mean, my actual Major is nothing like this at all, not even the topic) was the best choice I made for this course.

None of it has been edited. Pre-first draft material for a shockingly bad idea.

 

[jhakka]

Thanks Jhakka... thats is surely very interesting ! I didnt know much bout the rep points..... thanks for clearing it up

It's cool.

 

[mugrug]

hey guys
i dont post much, but i couldnt resist this forum
im worried about my mark, i found alot of these stories absolutely amazing
check mine out hey
but be gentle..
thanks

Wow, that was amazingly powerful propagandhi.

The first story, while a little cliched, was brilliantly written. Somewhat interesting homoerotic connotations (probably just my mind working overtime and most likely not intended to be seen that way.) A good story, a good tale... tragic, destructive, disgusting reality but as you put it "Such is the nature of humanity..."

The Second story was amazing. The subject matter disturbing, but I see that you like to shock the reader with the graphic and unashamed reality of the world we live in and what we are a part of. The structure was so disjointed, yet easy to read and beautiful. You made it have a life of its own.

You are a powerfully tragic writer.

May I ask, have you seen Neaon Genesis Evangelion? It just seems as though the stories may have been influenced by that anime style and the specific characters. I feel the echoes.

The two soldiers in the first story just reminded me of Shinji and Kaowru (source of homoeroticism most likely.) The second story reminded me of the style of evangelion. Especially:
"Get out of my head get out of my head get out of my head…"

Relating to the repetition of Asuka's "I don't want to die", Shinji's "I mustne't run away."

The use of mantras to express the emotional, psychological and physical pains that plague the characters.

Of course, it may just be a coincidence, but that's what i got out of it.

I love it. Good luck with it in the HSC, now I must study =P

 

[goldendawn]

Thanks Jhakka and Hotcocoababe for your help.

I wonder who gave me such a bad rep! Ah well. In some places its good to be 'bad', lol. For my part though I'd rather be on a "distinguished road".

Ok, so alot of the major works I have read round here are in the contemporary 'angst' genre, if you like. What do people think of this? Do you think its an inextricable part of the teenage condition, just the angst in western writing which has lingered since the advent of modernism, or a way to make writing seem deep? I have been having a battle with this question. I don't want to try and detract from people's efforts in creating a major work, but I wonder sometimes if angst really serves a purpose. I think I got into this little argument after having read "Heart of Darkness", "Animal Farm", and "Fareignheit 451" - sometimes it feels as if purely dwelling in the negative aspect of life is purposeless. Shouldn't we be creating the world we want to be in? There's the line that says that the only way people will learn is to shock them, presenting images of horror and pain and despair. But to what end? I know that in alot of ancient Greek literature (and modern Greek song writing for that matter!) there is this emphasis on such depths of suffering and striving. (I hear the line "pathano", - "I'm dying without you" in alot of modern Greek music, and poetry, Seferis work for example.) On the flipside, whilst the Greek psyche aknowledges deep pain and loss and suffering, it also relished the beautiful aspects of life; as if both aspects acted mutually to intensify all experiences. (We can even hear this idea in the words of the Lebanese poet Kahlil Gibran - "Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding" - "The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain".) Coming from a Greek background, though, I have come to see a difference between the Greek notion of suffering, and the contemporary, post-modern western notion - the Greek notion has this strong sense of "elefteria!" - freedom - whereas the contemporary western notion feels oppressive. What do people make of this?

 

[mugrug]

MUGRUG - wow, your MW is AWESOME!

I wasnt initially gonna read it, just download and read later, but it hooked me as soon as i skimmed the first few paragraphs.

If i wasn't in such a brain-dead state from the HSC, i would critique it properly, but as it is i'll try anyway

You must have done a helluva lot of research for it?
And WHAT a subject to tackle - life after death - not something that your everyday Average Joe is gonna dabble in but you pulled it off SO well!

Damn you, now im desperate to know what happens to Daniel! (I dont suppose you could, perhaps, give me any idea as to what happens to him.....? )

Again - WOW..... im so impressed! You're going to go so well!

Top stuff!!!!!

Wow! Thanks! I really didn't expect such an enthusiastic response.

I didn't really research too much... just a few different concepts (as I sat there wishing I'd studied philosphy.) My research consisted of little more than reading widely, as we all should do, and looking ups some ideas online- Plato's Cave, Division of the Mind, coma... etc. I also tried to avoid it becoming too similar to the world of the matrix and hope that I managed to pull that off. It's so frustrating when trying to avoid parallels between the story you want to tell and another.

As the Barenaked Ladies would say "Awoohoohoo, It's all been done before" =P

I am on such a high right now. I can't thank you enough. It's funny how such a response can give a person such confidence. Really looking forward to challenging myself on english paper 2 tomorrow now =P

I would really like to read all the stories on this thread actually, but as I just discovered it today I can't untill I have more of a gap. So in a few days I'll respond some more to everyone's stories hopefully.

*grins*

*runs off to study... in theory (I get distracted so easily)*

 

[jhakka]

Thanks Jhakka and Hotcocoababe for your help.

I wonder who gave me such a bad rep! Ah well. In some places its good to be 'bad', lol. For my part though I'd rather be on a "distinguished road".

Ok, so alot of the major works I have read round here are in the contemporary 'angst' genre, if you like. What do people think of this? Do you think its an inextricable part of the teenage condition, just the angst in western writing which has lingered since the advent of modernism, or a way to make writing seem deep? I have been having a battle with this question. I don't want to try and detract from people's efforts in creating a major work, but I wonder sometimes if angst really serves a purpose. I think I got into this little argument after having read "Heart of Darkness", "Animal Farm", and "Fareignheit 451" - sometimes it feels as if purely dwelling in the negative aspect of life is purposeless. Shouldn't we be creating the world we want to be in? There's the line that says that the only way people will learn is to shock them, presenting images of horror and pain and despair. But to what end? I know that in alot of ancient Greek literature (and modern Greek song writing for that matter!) there is this emphasis on such depths of suffering and striving. (I hear the line "pathano", - "I'm dying without you" in alot of modern Greek music, and poetry, Seferis work for example.) On the flipside, whilst the Greek psyche aknowledges deep pain and loss and suffering, it also relished the beautiful aspects of life; as if both aspects acted mutually to intensify all experiences. (We can even hear this idea in the words of the Lebanese poet Kahlil Gibran - "Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding" - "The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain".) Coming from a Greek background, though, I have come to see a difference between the Greek notion of suffering, and the contemporary, post-modern western notion - the Greek notion has this strong sense of "elefteria!" - freedom - whereas the contemporary western notion feels oppressive. What do people make of this?

*isn't fond of angsty stuff*

 

[mugrug]

Hey goldendawn.

I tried to focus more on nihlism than angst.

I think tragedy and depreession is part of being a teenager. Not trivialising the human experience but we really are finding ourselves and with that comes loss.

I think the writer in us all feels that most especially. The writer in us is most prone to concentrate on the bad... what we need to write about to express ourselves and expel it from our system. There is so much pressure involved in writing, how can we not feel it and respond?

I agree with you though. I believe there is a sense of freedom that comes from suffering. It inspires thought, imagination and a longing for peace. Sometimes that longing is much more rewarding that being content. Do we not force ourselves into suffering when we study? The rewards may validate this, but we must suffer to gain freedom. We must fight both the world and ourselves and come out the victor.

Somehow I don't think the 60 year old board of studies ladies who are marking our stories will understand this though. I would try to avoid angst if possible. We are writing for an audience, and thta audience is the markers. My english extension 2 teacher said something along the lines of "you write really well but it's a pity you aren't writing about real events and things that actually happen." I didn't get along well with her. The generation gap limited our views of each other. No wonder she made us read "The Shipping News" *hate hate hate* =P

Anyway, yes. Where was my point? I've rambled. Ok. Angst=bad in this context. ButAngst is part of who we are and it can be a wonderful thing. I justcan't see it being appreciated here.

 

[jhakka]

I suppose bad things are essential to any narrative.

Orientation
Complication
Resolution

There were probably more bits, but I'll be damned if I can remember what they are.

 

[goldendawn]

Hey Mugrug,

Yeah, the whole point of my post was that I felt that there was something missing in pure angst writing. To me it seems to be purposeless. Nihilism, in this respect is much the same - because nihilism views life as absurd and pointless.

I was saying that the Greek notion of "elefteria" freedom after suffering, was so different to the contemporary western notion, permeating much of our art and literature - for me, this contemporary western notion feels oppressive. Just as Kahlil Gibran was derided by critics in the 1900's for being "positive", because he did not posses the same irony, satire, angst or nihilistic approach, he was considered sentimental and overly mystical. Its these new postmodern aesthetic and ideological values that get to me - I am just a little annoyed at the pointlessness of angst and nihilism. It seems a trend in reactionary philosophies like modernism (the later aspects) and postmodernism. That being said, I am not "airy-fairy", ignoring the range of human emotion - I just believe that one should be balanced by the other, and that life isn't without meaning.

 

[jhakka]

Mugrug, you got distracted from your study already?

 

[goldendawn]

I suppose bad things are essential to any narrative.

Orientation
Complication
Resolution

There were probably more bits, but I'll be damned if I can remember what they are.

Jhakka -
Its
Orientation
Complication
Evaluation
Resolution

PS: The complication is not necessarily a 'bad thing' - and the tenor of the story may be positive. The complication is, well, a complication.

 

[jhakka]

A complication: Something that disrupts the everyday events of the characters lives. Something to cause some kind of uncertainty, conflict or just plan confusion.

That's probably not a completely accurate definition, but its close enough.

 

[goldendawn]

A complication: Something that disrupts the everyday events of the characters lives. Something to cause some kind of uncertainty, conflict or just plan confusion.

That's probably not a completely accurate definition, but its close enough.

I would say that the complication is what predicates change in a narrative. It allows the unfolding of meaning through circumstance. This is usually in line with the tenor of the work - and a complication is not necessarily a negative thing - one could be moved by the most sublime emotion - and this change could be called the complication, which initiates narrative movement. Its fundamentally the interaction of elements within a narrative.

 

[Monkey Butler]

Mugrug, I'm reading yours right now, and I can definitely see both Matrix and Neon Genesis references/influences (I'm up to the part where Daniel's being told about making the world - the beginning and ending line is pure Matrix, and the creating the dimensions bit is straight out of Neon Genesis ). It's great so far, I'll see where it goes...

EDIT: OK, I've just finished. I dunno what to say. It was certainly very similar to the Matrix, as you said, although that's not going to be a problem, because you tackle the idea from a fairly different angle. The dialoge about creating reality was a little too Architect for my liking (which I always thought was a pretentious wank) but it was infinitely better written than that scene (not a big fan of the Matrix sequels). The scene of the creation of the Universe was also very well written, and I liked how you tied up the question of Creation by saying that it's just the memories/learnings of one experience. But I thought there was a degree of coldness in the writing - I never really got a feel of how much Daniel wanted to be with Helen, how much he missed her, and the tragedy that he could never have her back.

Anyway, it was very well written, and certainly fairly original. Top work!

 

[jhakka]

I would say that the complication is what predicates change in a narrative. It allows the unfolding of meaning through circumstance. This is usually in line with the tenor of the work - and a complication is not necessarily a negative thing - one could be moved by the most sublime emotion - and this change could be called the complication, which initiates narrative movement. Its fundamentally the interaction of elements within a narrative.

Good point.

 

[mugrug]

Mugrug, I'm reading yours right now, and I can definitely see both Matrix and Neon Genesis references/influences (I'm up to the part where Daniel's being told about making the world - the beginning and ending line is pure Matrix, and the creating the dimensions bit is straight out of Neon Genesis ). It's great so far, I'll see where it goes...

EDIT: OK, I've just finished. I dunno what to say. It was certainly very similar to the Matrix, as you said, although that's not going to be a problem, because you tackle the idea from a fairly different angle. The dialoge about creating reality was a little too Architect for my liking (which I always thought was a pretentious wank) but it was infinitely better written than that scene (not a big fan of the Matrix sequels). The scene of the creation of the Universe was also very well written, and I liked how you tied up the question of Creation by saying that it's just the memories/learnings of one experience. But I thought there was a degree of coldness in the writing - I never really got a feel of how much Daniel wanted to be with Helen, how much he missed her, and the tragedy that he could never have her back.

Anyway, it was very well written, and certainly fairly original. Top work!

Thanks ^^
Hehe, I love Evangelion... it's my little obsession. Brilliant story. A major influencing factor of my story. It's kind of related to the human instrumentality project as represented in the last two episodes of the series. Just the examination of self.

I agree. The architect was Colonel Sanders anyway. I like the MTV movie award spoof architect scene. "I have no idea what the hell I'm saying, i just thought it'd make me sound cool." =P

As for creation I acknowledge that my beliefs are not universal. So while I could say that creation stems from the big bang and thus offend or exclude some readers, I thought it better to make it a matter of perception. Afterall that's what it all comes down to.

As for the coldness. I can see that is a major flaw. Everytime I tried to add sections to give their relationship depth it seemed far too superficial. I just eventually put it down to an inability to write about heterosexual relationships effectively. However, i didn't want to write about a homosexual relationship because I wished to tell a story about people, not discuss contentious issues. I don't think the HSC is an appropriate platform to make such a statement, as personal as it may be.

I'm glad you liked it *huge grin*

 

[Llyrai]

Jhakka -
Its
Orientation
Complication
Evaluation
Resolution

Are we talking about s.s. here? (i dunnoe, too lazy to read previous posts) Cause remember there isnt a need for a resolution for a short story, its not a convention remember?

And as for the complication point, its the excuse to make the characters do something interesting, so that they can go one their JOURNEY! (OMFG yes!)

 

[goldendawn]

Are we talking about s.s. here? (i dunnoe, too lazy to read previous posts) Cause remember there isnt a need for a resolution for a short story, its not a convention remember?

And as for the complication point, its the excuse to make the characters do something interesting, so that they can go one their JOURNEY! (OMFG yes!)

Llyrai,

We were discussing the narrative structure in general. Yes its true that one "convention" of the short stort genre is that it should end at its climax; maintaining the short story's intense unity of effect. This acts in itself as an incisive denoument of plot. The kind of dramatic impact generated by the short story is quite unique to the genre, as it evokes a profoundly emotive effect, perhaps not as easily achieved with the evalutation and resolution hanging off the main form as useless apendages.

(Excuse the overly evaluative language I'm in "English Paper II" mode - I hope I will heal soon from the scars of HSC Syndrome. haha. And if I hear the words "journey" "journey's" or any such variant any time soon, I think my brains are going to implode...)

 

[jhakka]

Are we talking about s.s. here? (i dunnoe, too lazy to read previous posts) Cause remember there isnt a need for a resolution for a short story, its not a convention remember?

And as for the complication point, its the excuse to make the characters do something interesting, so that they can go one their JOURNEY! (OMFG yes!)

Go on their journey and come back blessed and altered.