Religious affiliation (2 Viewers)

[Alvin Yeap]

born to christianity ...

pcwizz

ever bother to question it?

 

[Wilmo]

anyways off on another tangent...does anyone feel that Hillsong verges on the disturbing? Everytime I see it i feel disgusted and sorry for the people who attend.

Its values hardly capture what i see as the positives of the church.

I have very mixed opinions on Hillsongs. On one level, i think its really good that they get lots of people coming to their church. I think its awesome that people can get so many others to come and it would be cool if that happened in all churches.

But the main level is the problems I have with it. The first is how much effort they put into their music. Granted they have talented singers and musicians... But they're in danger of worshiping the music instead of worshiping God (i think it already happens). Some people dont go for the God that is sung about, they go for the concert feeling.

That leads me onto the next quirble. I dont find their lyrics anywhere near up to scratch. All the songs I hear are them singing about God, but with watered down lyrics. What i like about hymns is that some sound bad because they are put straight to music from the bible! Thats awesome. But I find Hillsongs just picks a theme, writes music people will like, then thinks of weak lyrics to attach to it.

Thats really what annoys me most. People dont get true christianity. They get a watered down version which is of no use. I havent really heard many songs by them, but im yet to hear one about the dangers of hell and how sinful everybody is. Not that christianity is all fire and brimstone stuff, but if you leave that out you only get half the gospel. How do you know how good heaven will be if you cant compare it to how bad hell will be?

Having all that said, I wouldnt wish for them to stop doing what they do. Despite my feelings, there are some people who actually find hillsongs to be a good church. I think that some people would get more out of that kind of church than a conservative one, so they should keep going. I just hope they dont miss out on the full message.

The Sunday morning broadcast... Such singing seems far too intense (arms raised, eyes closed, standing still but shaking at the same time) for it to be healthy.

I often find myself paying out on bapticostals, which is not a good thing. I think its because we are more likely to pay out on what we dont understand. Personally, i dont think you need to do the arms raised and shaking busines... but some people think you do which is fine for them.

There is no secret formula for getting intouch with the spirit. You dont need to raise your arms or shake your body. You can worship or pray anyway you want and you can have an equal oportunity of being struck with a feeling. Its like driving a car. Some people will drive slow, some will drive fast, but all are actually driving.

More conservitave churches (anglicans and the like) prefer the slow driving. They dont lift their hands usually, but they still have the same spirit the other christians do so theres no reason why what they do will stop them from feeling the spirit. More charismatic churches (baptists, pentecostal etc.) choose to drive fast. They lift their hands they speak in tounges and they tend to talk about feeling the spirit more. What they do doesnt make a difference, its just theyre more recognised for it.

While im here, ill throw in the main problem i have with charismatic churches. Its not a big one really, but its something I believe in very strongly. If you go to a charismatic church, you'll often find them calling down the spirit. I personally find that stupid. Can you imagine walking into a room of your friends then having them all start saying "Come *your name*" for a while, then they only stop when you say that you are there? Thats what its like with the holy spirit. Hes already there, you dont need to call him down!

ever bother to question it?

Questioning = good.

You cant be "born" into a religion because its a personal decision you make. Just because your parents are saved doesnt mean you're saved by default.

So if you question it, you will either come up with a reason of your own for believing it (not just "my parents do so i do") which would be awesome, or you will realise that you dont believe it and you'll have to work stuff out for yourself from there.

As much as I wouldnt like you to not be a christian, the two options above are much better than what you have now. Its better for you to be burning for it or cold to it then just sitting there luke-warm. You'll be vomited out if you stay like that!

Its your decision where to go from here. You can make up your own mind about what you believe about this God stuff, or you can stay how you are and not be guarenteed of anything but being vomited out for not being hot or cold.





Sorry for the super long post

 

[Alvin Yeap]

Questioning = good.

You cant be "born" into a religion because its a personal decision you make. Just because your parents are saved doesnt mean you're saved by default.

So if you question it, you will either come up with a reason of your own for believing it (not just "my parents do so i do") which would be awesome, or you will realise that you dont believe it and you'll have to work stuff out for yourself from there.

As much as I wouldnt like you to not be a christian, the two options above are much better than what you have now. Its better for you to be burning for it or cold to it then just sitting there luke-warm. You'll be vomited out if you stay like that!

Its your decision where to go from here. You can make up your own mind about what you believe about this God stuff, or you can stay how you are and not be guarenteed of anything but being vomited out for not being hot or cold.

how are you meant to question something when you have faith in, it would be impossible to question something that you have faith in at any level of seriousness.

 

[Alvin Yeap]

I often find myself paying out on bapticostals, which is not a good thing. I think its because we are more likely to pay out on what we dont understand. Personally, i dont think you need to do the arms raised and shaking busines... but some people think you do which is fine for them.

There is no secret formula for getting intouch with the spirit. You dont need to raise your arms or shake your body. You can worship or pray anyway you want and you can have an equal oportunity of being struck with a feeling. Its like driving a car. Some people will drive slow, some will drive fast, but all are actually driving.

More conservitave churches (anglicans and the like) prefer the slow driving. They dont lift their hands usually, but they still have the same spirit the other christians do so theres no reason why what they do will stop them from feeling the spirit. More charismatic churches (baptists, pentecostal etc.) choose to drive fast. They lift their hands they speak in tounges and they tend to talk about feeling the spirit more. What they do doesnt make a difference, its just theyre more recognised for it.

While im here, ill throw in the main problem i have with charismatic churches. Its not a big one really, but its something I believe in very strongly. If you go to a charismatic church, you'll often find them calling down the spirit. I personally find that stupid. Can you imagine walking into a room of your friends then having them all start saying "Come *your name*" for a while, then they only stop when you say that you are there? Thats what its like with the holy spirit. Hes already there, you dont need to call him down!

It seems odd to me that you can believe something that is based on assumptions and faith - then loose control over it.

 

[Slidey]

"Oh no! I failed this test! It was obviously God's will! God probably wants me to be dumb because of all the sins I have commited - such as not walking into a gothic-looking structure full of weed-smoke every Sunday."

Those people get on my nerves.

 

[Wilmo]

how are you meant to question something when you have faith in, it would be impossible to question something that you have faith in at any level of seriousness.

You can question why you have faith in it. Do you really believe in it? Or were you just going with the crowd?

And if you dont believe it, but your parents do, obviously you dont really have faith in it yourself so therefore you can question it seriously because you have to decide for yourself whether there is something there worth you putting your faith in. Is it your God? Or the God of your parents?

It seems odd to me that you can believe something that is based on assumptions and faith - then loose control over it.

Im pretty stupid, so I dont get the losing control bit. Please explain

With the assumptions stuff, if your making assumptions then you are looking for things which arent there. Its stupid to make assumptions about things as large and as complicated as a divine being.

If that divine being has made himself known to you, by experience and by his word, then he has let you know enough to get by, you dont need to look for anything more. You have to search deeper into what you already have.

You would probably be thinking something along the lines of how can i believe the bible. Well, apart from the fact that there were many non christian writers such as Josephus Flavius who mentioned in their writings about a guy named Jesus doing miraculous stuff and getting a whole group of people following his teaching, the bible says in 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..."

Thats where faith comes in. Im not assuming that what i believe is correct. Im having faith that this is all true. I believe it because i have been told it, it has been backed up with other evidence and everything I am points to it being right. Im not going to go out into the world and believe everything Im told, but i will test it to the bible and to other evidence.

On a side note, there is more literary evidence that Jesus existed then there is that Julius Caeser did. How many people do you know that doubt he existed?

"Oh no! I failed this test! It was obviously God's will! God probably wants me to be dumb because of all the sins I have commited - such as not walking into a gothic-looking structure full of weed-smoke every Sunday."

Those people get on my nerves.

If i fail a test its because I didnt study

I cant blame God for a failure that I brought upon myself, but i can use it as a learning curve for everything. If i dont study for a hard test, chances are im going to fail miserably. Just like if i dont study what i believe, chances are im going to fail at convincing others theres a good reason to believe it.

I dont know much about islaam, so if i were to get up the front of a mosque and give a speech about it, they'd know I was liing to them about believing it. In the same way i cant tell anyone about why im a christian unless I know what I believe.

Lots of christians use God as an excuse when they fail... "I just had a lustful thought about that hot chick, oh God must have put her there to tempt me"... Ha. We are tempted by ourselves because we are weak. Cant blame God for where you fall short.


P.S. The church isnt the building its the people, so we would have to be walking round stoned all the time

 

[porge]

i dunno if its been spoken about cos, man 17 pages on religion... no thanks
neway my question
difference between christianity and catholic?
are they like different sectors, branches, interepretations?
im jewish, so if its anything like being secular, orthodox, modern orthodox
then i understand
- but other then that, no one has really answered the question for me before
also how many 'branches' are there - greek cath, roman cath...etc.
(i wish id dun sor )

 

[Wilmo]

difference between christianity and catholic?
are they like different sectors, branches, interepretations?

The answer is yes and no. Theres a really long answer which im too lazy to go into. The short answer is catholics are christians. The word catholic means universal and was the word given to name the early christians. The split happened in about the mid 1500's.

There was this guy named Martin Luthor and he was trying to be the best monk he could be, but he never felt as if he could whip himself enough to please God (the monks were crazy and felt they had to punish themselves for their sin and the sin of others). So he got heaps depressed thinking hed never be good enough and tried to buy his way out of pugatory (a place where catholics believe you go to pay for your sins before you go to heaven). But he still didnt think it was enough.

He then got sent to another monastery in germany where he was made director of bible studies and he learnt lots of things. The catholics of the time were lead to believe you must be saved through the pope, but he looked at the bible and it said that only Jesus saves, noone else. He also discovered that pugatory was made up and had no biblical foundation.

Basically he nailed a 95 point statement of why the catholics were wrong to the door of the popes bedroom. This started a thing called the reformation where the church broke up into catholics and protestants. So you could say that protestants were the true christians cause catholics added things which werent there.

By no means were protestants perfect there was lots of infighting so thats why theres so many different denominations like anglicans and baptists and what have you.

The most important thing to remember is "As long as its based on Christ, it will always be Christianity."

Sorry that was so long... i just find any history that isnt australian history or history that im forced to know really interesting



And also could you tell me a bit about what you believe as a Jew? I dont know much about it so I think it would be really interesting

I dont think anyone is debating the existance of jesus. Mr Ceasar didnt do unbelievable things. Jesus did.

The fact jesus existed gives you no reason to become deeply devine?!?!?1

Noone here is debating it... but its surprising that a lot of people out there doubt he was even a real person.

But as i said, that was just a side note. I said in my main body of that that many of the people who wrote about him said that he performed miracles. So if you want to pick up on that you can. You may also know that many people before and after jesus performed miracles to... but they did not claim to be the Son of God, and they werent shown to be by the ressurection.

 

[porge]

And also could you tell me a bit about what you believe as a Jew? I dont know much about it so I think it would be really interesting

id love to.
or i can tell you as much as i know
learning at a jewish school tends to make you not want to learnt he jewish subjects
its a bit sad, but if you have question please PM me.
or even ask here, but it usually turns into a big religious debate that i dont think i could handle


and thanx for the answer

 

[Wilmo]

The question is whether you have the faith to believe in the miricles described which would seem unbelieveble to certian people...even if they are writtem about (still would be secondary sources)

Although it is a secondary source, you cant really base it on what one or two people have seen. You'd have to find a lot of people who witnessed the event for it to hold any credibility. I reckon if 500 people saw someone who was dead walking around you'd have to agree it was something very important to that group of people.

But yeah, just because a whole mob of people saw a miracle doesnt mean its easy to believe it happened. I guess it all boils down to how willing you are to accept that there are things that happen which you dont understand. So yeah... noone said it was easy

and thanx for the answer

No worries... im glad it was of some help

 

[porge]

hey wilmo, i really wanted to talk to u bout judaism, but i couldnt pm u cos ur all pmless..
so i just wanted to let you know that im open to talk to you bout anything u please

 

[velox]

Same, i dont have much of an idea about Judaism, eventhough majority of my street is Jewish

 

[porge]

hahahaha
yeah that'll happen in the north.
i bet they are all south africans aswell?
and they all go to masada?

ask away, gimme a topic and ill start talking

 

[ezzy85]

basically, the main thing about jews is that we only believe in one god. no jesus or anything else, just god. theres more too it than that, so youll have to be a bit more specific or visit the studies of religion forum.

 

[Slidey]

P.S. The church isnt the building its the people, so we would have to be walking round stoned all the time

I'm a "convert" from Catholicism to atheism. I know what I am talking about when I speak of Christians, and acknowledge that there are many different types with varying degrees of devoutness and for some, stupidity (as with all people).

In regards to "converting" atheists... I think they would probably be the group you are LEAST likely to convince to be religious, let alone specifically religious.

 

[Wilmo]

I would have to agree. If there was a competition out there to see who had the least relative conversions to any religion, athiests would win. Partly because a lot of athiest have tried their hand at believing in a God but didnt find him, and partly because they believe theres nothing there so its not simply a matter of pointing them to one god out of many.

But when you think about it, you arent really the hardest to convert. There's a lot of so called christians out there who if i tried to tell the real christianity to would become very hostile, even more so than those who believe something else. I think it would be the same for a muslim trying to convert a terrorist. I dont know much about islaam, but im pretty sure nowhere in the koran it says: "Kill as many infidel as possible and you'll be welcomed in heaven"... if it did, muslims wouldn't be some of the nicest people I know.




Out of curiosity, apart from being the "natural" choice, what made you become an athiest?

 

[velox]

hahahaha
yeah that'll happen in the north.
i bet they are all south africans aswell?
and they all go to masada?

ask away, gimme a topic and ill start talking

Yep!! All south african jews.......And they all go to masada, with exceptions. My neighbour went to some eastie Jewish School. The school bus would come and pick her up. I think it was in Dover Heights???

 

[withoutaface]

Asquithian: You aren't born an atheist, as an atheist is someone who believes that there is no God, which implies some kind of concious thought on the subject. We are born agnostics, which means someone who doesn't feel too strongly one way or the other.

 

[snapperhead]

...anyways does anyone feel like adressing the social problems created by religion.

what about the social problems/issues addressed by religion?

 

[snapperhead]

hey wilmo, i really wanted to talk to u bout judaism, but i couldnt pm u cos ur all pmless..
so i just wanted to let you know that im open to talk to you bout anything u please

post any questions in the SOR forum...many helpful ppl in there!!!

BTW...I find this thread very interesting in its diversity of opinion and complete lack of understanding or respect of other ppls beliefs by some posters.... (not you asqy). Its what they believe....no need to question them or imply that they are wrong
(and please note that I have not mentioned whether I am referring to either the religious or non-religious posts as there is fault on both sides..... so much for living in a tolerant society!! LOL

Edit...I think some of you may have to look at your definitions, in particular atheism as its a bit more than just "not believing in God"