SMH Article on Paper 2 (5 Viewers)

[Not-That-Bright]

Lets just say that in my intrinsic selfishness I'd love the University placements to be IQ based. .

IQ Based is stupid, you need to test people on their skills performed not in their shown ability on one particular test...

 

[RyddeckerSMP]

English does need some work to be done with it, sure, but the problems with the so-called postmodernisation of english as written in that earlier Australian editorial are simply farcial. AOS is shocking at the moment, and for the modules, B and C seem to be the only ones that reward thinking, Module A is ok, but due to the amazing amount needed to know is usually resigned to a how fast can you write test. There needs to be some fine-tuning,

 

[holla back girl]

English does need some work to be done with it, sure, but the problems with the so-called postmodernisation of english as written in that earlier Australian editorial are simply farcial. AOS is shocking at the moment, and for the modules, B and C seem to be the only ones that reward thinking, Module A is ok, but due to the amazing amount needed to know is usually resigned to a how fast can you write test. There needs to be some fine-tuning,

i agree....

 

[Rafy]

Well look at the 1972 paper posted here: http://community.boredofstudies.org/showthread.php?t=89619

Compare and contrast it to the 2005 postmoderist crap.


We are "dumbing" down our students!

 

[Not-That-Bright]

How exactly is that rewarding thinking? None of the english essay questions reward thinking at all and I can guarentee you that all responses from band 4 - 6 look basically exactly the same.

 

[AlabasterMan]

What the hell are you on about? Stop trying to make this issue into some class struggle...
It is a matter of creating a uniform national exam that measures students performance by testing their basic skills.

I believe they call that the 'School Certificate,' though I can't actually remember studying for that one.

 

[Ultraviolent]

Well look at the 1972 paper posted here: http://community.boredofstudies.org/showthread.php?t=89619

Compare and contrast it to the 2005 postmoderist crap.


We are "dumbing" down our students!

I like this paper. It gives some choice, dosn't seem to readily lend itself to tutor written essays, and seems to actually encourage one to think for themselves (to some degree).

 

[RyddeckerSMP]

How exactly is that rewarding thinking? None of the english essay questions reward thinking at all and I can guarentee you that all responses from band 4 - 6 look basically exactly the same.

Just because you decide that i'll just follow the status quo and not come up with my own ideas with these two sections doesn't mean that none of the class of '04 or '05 did.

 

[AlabasterMan]

How exactly is that rewarding thinking? None of the english essay questions reward thinking at all and I can guarentee you that all responses from band 4 - 6 look basically exactly the same.

Actually, I found it interesting to note that the differential between bands is, more often than not, the ability to write coherently and elegantly (which is the good version of simply). As in, I often find it that a band 4 response THEORETICALLY makes the same points as a band 6 exemplar response, but the exemplar student knows how to phrase a logical - and therefore understandable - sentence.

So yes and no, I think the english exams reward clarity of thought. That isn't everything, but it'll do to begin. Response?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Just because you decide that i'll just follow the status quo and not come up with my own ideas with these two sections doesn't mean that none of the class of '04 or '05 did.

But the way the course is designed etc it rewards the status quo.
You are taught things a, b, c, d, and e. On your exam, they check to see whether you have demonstrated a, b, c, d, and e... everything else is a waste of your time.

Also, if a student did manage to come up with something out of the ordinary, as well as achieving low marks they probably would have come up with this out of the ordinary idea from outside of the syllabus.

Actually, I found it interesting to note that the differential between bands is, more often than not, the ability to write coherently and elegantly (which is the good version of simply). As in, I often find it that a band 4 response THEORETICALLY makes the same points as a band 6 exemplar response, but the exemplar student knows how to phrase a logical - and therefore understandable - sentence.

I don't believe it's just that they write more elegantly, I believe it's also their scope... While most of their points are basically the same as the answers of lower band students, they will throw in an extra quote or whatever...

It's not exactly demonstrating critical thought, which is my main point. Not that I believe that this should be a part of highschool learning, but it seems this is how some people have chosen to defend english.

 

[Ultraviolent]

But the way the course is designed etc it rewards the status quo.
You are taught things a, b, c, d, and e. On your exam, they check to see whether you have demonstrated a, b, c, d, and e... everything else is a waste of your time.

Also, if a student did manage to come up with something out of the ordinary, as well as achieving low marks they probably would have come up with this out of the ordinary idea from outside of the syllabus.

Agreed. If for example, one decided to argue for the media in telling the truth, they would get hammered. A response that justified the so called "emphasis and selection " along the lines of demand (ie. the mother who has worked all day, and is trying to cook dinner while looking after the kids is not going to want to think about serious issues) would score horribly no matter how sophisticated.

 

[AlabasterMan]

But the way the course is designed etc it rewards the status quo.
You are taught things a, b, c, d, and e. On your exam, they check to see whether you have demonstrated a, b, c, d, and e... everything else is a waste of your time.

Also, if a student did manage to come up with something out of the ordinary, as well as achieving low marks they probably would have come up with this out of the ordinary idea from outside of the syllabus.

A little weak. In exemplar responses, students have demostrated through an essay their understanding of a concept. Even the simplest of these (physical journey) can be examined in multiple ways from the one text. Each student has their own way of looking at the concept. Sometimes this is 'uh i don't really understand it so I'll just memorise THESE quotes and THIS essay.' But the higher band students each have subtle and not-so-subtle differences in the way they view the concept, and very different essay styles. "everything else is a waste of your time" - i don't think so, I'd say that that "everything else" includes quite al ot of valuable material.

 

[AlabasterMan]

Agreed. If for example, one decided to argue for the media in telling the truth, they would get hammered. A response that justified the so called "emphasis and selection " along the lines of demand (ie. the mother who has worked all day, and is trying to cook dinner while looking after the kids is not going to want to think about serious issues) would score horribly no matter how sophisticated.

Sorry to but in, but one of the exemplar responses i saw for 'telling the truth' established that 'responders are as complicit as composers in manipulating the truth' (or words that meant exactly the same thing). This formed the major part of a slightly radical way of looking at the course - hey presto, exemplar response.

 

[RyddeckerSMP]

Agreed. If for example, one decided to argue for the media in telling the truth, they would get hammered. A response that justified the so called "emphasis and selection " along the lines of demand (ie. the mother who has worked all day, and is trying to cook dinner while looking after the kids is not going to want to think about serious issues) would score horribly no matter how sophisticated.

That's becuase the idea is stupid.

 

[Ultraviolent]

Sorry to but in, but one of the exemplar responses i saw for 'telling the truth' established that 'responders are as complicit as composers in manipulating the truth' (or words that meant exactly the same thing). This formed the major part of a slightly radical way of looking at the course - hey presto, exemplar response.

That argument seems to still point the finger at the media, but I concede that it can be done to an extent by the intelligent.

However, this still falls under what Not-That-Bright said: "if a student did manage to come up with something out of the ordinary, they probably would have come up with this out of the ordinary idea from outside of the syllabus". The Telling The Truth module does not actually promote one to think. Instead, it merely gets students to attack. What I think would be of more use is a "Well, does this actually matter?" type focus. That way, students would at least be able to look at different viewpoints, rather than blindly charging into battle.

That's becuase the idea is stupid.

Who says? The media gives people what they want. It is a small minority of people that actually cares about major issues. Why can't students debate this and come to their own conclusions?

 

[RyddeckerSMP]

I say it is stupid.

I can't comment on Telling The Truth, i did Powerplay after all, which i did find encouraged you to think. There are so many possibilities to which you could take it.

 

[Ultraviolent]

When I made that SAME argument at school I got the mark equivalent of Anally Fisted.

Ultraviolent, Remember Simply Mario? I fulfilled the guidelines but I was "Too smart for my own good" and punished for it.

That is correct. Apparently the HSC is "not an appropriate time to be making a point or challenging ideas"...

 

[_dhj_]

The Telling The Truth module does not actually promote one to think. Instead, it merely gets students to attack. What I think would be of more use is a "Well, does this actually matter?" type focus. That way, students would at least be able to look at different viewpoints, rather than blindly charging into battle.

Attacking something is quite different to identifying and questioning. In any essay, you are free to make a "value judgement" implicitly or within the thesis. If you're able to make the point that "it doesn't matter" in a sophisticated manner, I don't see how you're excluded from the top band.

 

[RyddeckerSMP]

What we need is a system where we learn the information and have to make up an answer on the spot. If we are given a set series of empasised ideas which means we can pre-prepare an essay, it's pointless for those of us who DON'T HAVE ENGLISH TUTORS and who DO NOT PRE LEARN ESSAYS.

The system is supposed to usurp the ability to pre-learn essays, but unfortunately it just lends itself to the concept.

We do have that though. If you don't change your pre-learned essay to suit the question you are stuffed. You cannot get top marks by just splurging.

 

[Ultraviolent]

I say it is stupid.

I can't comment on Telling The Truth, i did Powerplay after all, which i did find encouraged you to think. There are so many possibilities to which you could take it.

Most narrow view ever. Coincidentially, this is what the module does. It never allows for another side to be examined. From day one, it's "Ok guys, the media is bad! LETS GO GET THEM!". Essentially, this isn't really critical thought... You can esacpe this to a limited extent if you want, but you are doing it on your own. And in doing so, you risk a marker that does not like the syllabus being challenged.