Students to be taught there isn't a God in Victorian schools (3 Viewers)

[Iron]

Youre all phillistines
Now Iron has to pick up the peices of humanity

 

[nikolas]

Youre all phillistines
Now Iron has to pick up the peices of humanity

/hug iron

 

[Will Shakespear]

it's not rly absolutism if you've just made something up and declared it to be absolutely true (even if it is in a rly old book)

it's just... enforced mythology

 

[Silver Persian]

Iron would you be happy if they taught, say, the values propounded by the Ancient Greek Gods at school? Because it seems like you don't have any particular argument for Christianity or God, you just believe that some level of moral absolutism is good. Is Ancient Greek moral absolutism as good as Christian absolutism regarding social cohesion and morality, and if not, why?

It just seems to me like you argue for religion not because you believe it but because you believe society needs religion to function...

 

[Iron]

This is what happens when we entrust left-wing kids with low uais to be the guardians of truth and knowledge

 

[Iron]

Iron would you be happy if they taught, say, the values propounded by the Ancient Greek Gods at school? Because it seems like you don't have any particular argument for Christianity or God, you just believe that some level of moral absolutism is good. Is Ancient Greek moral absolutism as good as Christian absolutism regarding social cohesion and morality, and if not, why?

It just seems to me like you argue for religion not because you believe it but because you believe society needs religion to function...

Id be outraged too if the ancient Greeks were overlooked, sure. Society does need these things. It so happens that I also think that it's true, but of course we dont have the muscle anymore to impose this view. All primary and secondary is doing is providing a useful introduction to the arguments around God which have haunted or blessed mankind since the beginning. No one is saying that it should be a public school teacher's role to bring them up in the Christian faith, but they cant seriously ignore the entire concept of God for political reasons. The notion of God informs an intelligent understanding of virtually everything. It's a motivator, it's a tool to understand others, it's a comfort etc.
Give the damn kids a damn introduction

 

[nikolas]

This is what happens when we entrust left-wing kids with low uais to be the guardians of truth and knowledge

Ahh yes those meddling kids.

 

[sstr]

I think religious instruction is the most valuable thing a human being can have. It's not fair that we foster this hazy, aimless search for meaning which has the inevitable result of people believing that they themselves compose all truth and nothing external to them is any greater. It's not only a tragic surrender of all things civilized and noble, but it's a recipe for disaster, catastrophe, anarchy. A world of selfish individuals refusing to love, to respect life, to heed to TRUTH. Community will collapse, government will breakdown, family will be dismantled. The end of the world as we know it

Let me translate this for those of you who couldn't read past all of the fluff and waffling: We should teach our children whatever is necessary, regardless of whether it is true or not or supported by the slightest shred of evidence, as long as it gives them some sense of "meaning." Of course, you would never say it so bluntly because that would reveal just how foolish your position is, but that is essentially what you have said.

Well done morons. Let's enforce another belief on our students in an attempt to stop enforcing a belief on our students.

In what way is a "belief" being "enforced"? Students are being taught a fact - that there is no evidence for the existence of God, any more than there is evidence for the existence of invisible man-eating dragons. Students are still free to believe whatever they like - but let them have all of the facts so that they can make an informed decision. That's all that is being done here.

 

[nikolas]

Id be outraged too if the ancient Greeks were overlooked, sure. Society does need these things. It so happens that I also think that it's true, but of course we dont have the muscle anymore to impose this view. All primary and secondary is doing is providing a useful introduction to the arguments around God which have haunted or blessed mankind since the beginning. No one is saying that it should be a public school teacher's role to bring them up in the Christian faith, but they cant seriously ignore the entire concept of God for political reasons. The notion of God informs an intelligent understanding of virtually everything. It's a motivator, it's a tool to understand others, it's a comfort etc.
Give the damn kids a damn introduction

Well that's all fine and dandy (not buying it btw), but an introduction in your view constitutes bible/koran/whatever studies every Monday morning?

 

[Iron]

Let me translate this for those of you who couldn't read past all of the fluff and waffling: We should teach our children whatever is necessary, regardless of whether it is true or not or supported by the slightest shred of evidence, as long as it gives them some sense of "meaning." Of course, you would never say it so bluntly because that would reveal just how foolish your position is, but that is essentially what you have said.

.

That is absolutely in no way what I said 2008.
Luck in teh HSC!

 

[nikolas]

That is absolutely in no way what I said 2008.
Luck in teh HSC!

You know the ad hominems were cute at the start but they getting quite stale really quick like.

 

[dont-ban-me-plz]

iron, are you saying that you wish to see religion in our school for social cohesion or simply because......you are strong about religion.

if its for social cohesion, to a certain point i can stand by your side. but, the problem is with so many religions among our society,i think we will end up seeing this country being religiously segregated.

i think the best form of social cohesion is nationalism. (not a US style in your face patriotism, nor a Chinese style blind nationalism) it will keep the left happy by keeping religion out of our society and to an extent bring about a more unified Australia.

 

[Kwayera]

The notion of God informs an intelligent understanding of virtually everything.

It does? How?

 

[Will Shakespear]

It does? How?

It's called looking through your Biblical Glasses

 

[sstr]

That is absolutely in no way what I said 2008.
Luck in teh HSC!

From a foolish argument straight onto Ad Hominem - you're on a roll! Let's take a look at what you said...

I think religious instruction is the most valuable thing a human being can have.

So far so good... Now let's see why

It's not fair that we foster this hazy, aimless search for meaning which has the inevitable result of people believing that they themselves compose all truth and nothing external to them is any greater.

So, religious education is valuable because it supposedly gives people clarity and meaning (since, you clearly state, an absence or religious education results in "haziness" and an "aimless search for meaning").

It's not only a tragic surrender of all things civilized and noble, but it's a recipe for disaster, catastrophe, anarchy. A world of selfish individuals refusing to love, to respect life, to heed to TRUTH. Community will collapse, government will breakdown, family will be dismantled. The end of the world as we know it

From there on you just proceed to make a fool of yourself with unsubstantiated waffling.

So, as I said, the translation is: Religious study (Despite its supernatural claims being completely unprovable) is important because it gives people clarity and meaning. Truth is unimportant. Without religious study we have <insert doomsday waffle here>

I think people can see for themselves what your post says .



P.S. Just an FYI, my UAI estimate is around 95. Thanx 4 teh gud luk wishh.

 

[Iron]

Well that's all fine and dandy (not buying it btw), but an introduction in your view constitutes bible/koran/whatever studies every Monday morning?

We're only talking about public schools. But sure, one morning a week or fortnight for a year or so, given to a sensible and balanced introduction to the concept of God, punctured by visits from local priests etc - i.e. some people believe that there is some meaning to life. This is a valid view and has formed the basis of most human endevour. After recess, like every other day, we will learn about part of that endevour

 

[Silver Persian]

Id be outraged too if the ancient Greeks were overlooked, sure. Society does need these things. It so happens that I also think that it's true, but of course we dont have the muscle anymore to impose this view. All primary and secondary is doing is providing a useful introduction to the arguments around God which have haunted or blessed mankind since the beginning. No one is saying that it should be a public school teacher's role to bring them up in the Christian faith, but they cant seriously ignore the entire concept of God for political reasons. The notion of God informs an intelligent understanding of virtually everything. It's a motivator, it's a tool to understand others, it's a comfort etc.
Give the damn kids a damn introduction

So you like God because he is "a motivator", "a tool to understand others" and a "comfort? Not so much because you think he actually exists - you think that society would fall apart without some form of higher power to provide meaning etc?

 

[Iron]

It does? How?

Because all quests for knoweldge lead to the ultimate question about ultimate truth and meaning? Because an overwhelming majority of the earth's population believe in a higher purpose and meaning than themselves and this informs the content of their life?

 

[A High Way Man]

DISAGREE WITH THIS MOVE COMPLETELY. Just because sum Christianist lobby forces scripture/christian units in syllabi doesnt mean da secular humanist education krew has to stoop to their levels.

 

[Kwayera]

You know, that is a concept that I have never understood - that life has to have "meaning" (and that meaning is necessarily divined from religion).

Never got it. Never will.