The Abortion Debate (continued) (3 Viewers)

[dieburndie]

It's too many because Australia's fertility rate is 1.7. Hopefully this will help reduce the abortion rate somewhat.

Yeah but as you've said before, the abortion rate is negligible as far as population changes are concerned. You are using the same argument you have argued against in other threads.
Or is it logical to stop abortions to increase the birth rate, yet completely illogical to promote them in order to decrease it?

 

[glitterfairy]

We are facing one of the greatest water shortages on records, have homeless people in the streets, numerous people trying to escape war-torn countries and enter a country such as ours...

And they're worried about our fertility rate?!

What happened to allowing women to be something more than a baby-making machine? We have Australians and potential Australians in plenty, assuming that we're still having children at all (and we are in a career-driven phase where women are choosing to put off childbirth so they can earn more $$$ in our expensive world, *cough*fuel prices*cough). Let those that want childern have them, let those that don't want them have their abortions, I say.

 

[dieburndie]

We are facing one of the greatest water shortages on records, have homeless people in the streets, numerous people trying to escape war-torn countries and enter a country such as ours...

And they're worried about our fertility rate?!

What happened to allowing women to be something more than a baby-making machine? We have Australians and potential Australians in plenty, assuming that we're still having children at all (and we are in a career-driven phase where women are choosing to put off childbirth so they can earn more $$$ in our expensive world, *cough*fuel prices*cough). Let those that want childern have them, let those that don't want them have their abortions, I say.

Yes, exactly. I completely agree.
Our birth rate isn't at 1.7 because of abortion.
And we don't want to give up our career driven lifestyle to have more children.

...so we have to kill unwhite people.

Wait, scratch that last one.

 

[withoutaface]

I'd contend that the major reason for being against abortion has nothing to do with fertility rates, but rather that they consider a foetus to be a human being. I can see their point of view, but I prefer to side with scientific consensus, which iirc classifies it as human at about 3-4 months.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

It doesn't matter what their reason for being against abortion is, it could be that they think abortion is the tool of Xenu to trap thetans in our bodies, I'm just looking at it from a practical point of view.

 

[withoutaface]

From a practical perspective we don't want coathanger abortions and the effect on population is negligable.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Well it's 0.5% of the population worth of abortions, in fact we import about 140,000 people each year so numbers of that order must count for something. Anyway this might be smashing the sacred wall between Church and Anybody but it's not quite outlawing abortions, I mean persuading someone not to have a legal abortion isn't the same as forcing them to use a coathanger.

 

[toadstooltown]

The majority of the people having abortions aren't going to be the best parents to raise outstanding members of the community. In several states in America ~18 years after abortions were legalised there was a significant drop in violent crime and gang related mugging etc. 'Pro-choice' people tried to account for these figures with recently introduced 'conceal and carry' gun laws but census figures clearly revealed that low-income women were having less children and being able to support the ones that they did have better. So a high birthrate doesn't exactly mean a better standard of living for all.

 

[banco55]

The majority of the people having abortions aren't going to be the best parents to raise outstanding members of the community. In several states in America ~18 years after abortions were legalised there was a significant drop in violent crime and gang related mugging etc. 'Pro-choice' people tried to account for these figures with recently introduced 'conceal and carry' gun laws but census figures clearly revealed that low-income women were having less children and being able to support the ones that they did have better. So a high birthrate doesn't exactly mean a better standard of living for all.

I don't think you can take US data and transfer it over to Australia (ie the crime figures) or the demographics of the women who have abortions. Even if you accept the US figures the abortion rate was only responsible for part of the crime rate drop. Plus 100000 is in no way a neglible figure if you take into account the fact that we have a low birthrate. Just to take one area that we are going to have real trouble with in the future :defence force recruitment. We are going to have a very tough time maintaining the ADF as the youth population shrinks.

 

[The Brucemaster]

100,000 is a negligible figure when you consider that that number includes miscarriages aswell as abortions.

 

[Xayma]

I don't think you can take US data and transfer it over to Australia (ie the crime figures) or the demographics of the women who have abortions. Even if you accept the US figures the abortion rate was only responsible for part of the crime rate drop. Plus 100000 is in no way a neglible figure if you take into account the fact that we have a low birthrate. Just to take one area that we are going to have real trouble with in the future :defence force recruitment. We are going to have a very tough time maintaining the ADF as the youth population shrinks.

We are having trouble recruiting now when there isn't an undersupply of youth. It indicates that there are problems that aren't due to population issues.

11% of the ADF is leaving each year. A declining youth population will have less of an effect on the ADF then it will on other issues. Since the ADF has been declining since the 1990s.

 

[glitterfairy]

My perspective stems from thinking about the individual mother.

Are they psychologically mature enough to raise a child? Mothers - young mothers in particular - may have to sacrifice their social life, job and even chance of higher education to have a child. Unless they have a financially secure AND supportive family/spouse, raising a kid is going to be one hell of a challenge. There's always the possibility that the young mother gets kicked out of her house for being pregnant, and gets dumped by her lame-ass boyfriend 6 months into pregnancy. What then? What kind of growing environment is that?!?!

Yes, some mothers love their children enough to make things work... but single parenthood, or even just regular parenthood is expensive and emotionally taxing. I actually have full respect for those people who recognise that they're not ready for that yet (most girls my age are at their 'peak' for bearing children, but are we emotionally or financially ready? hell no!). I don't want to screw myself over emotionally, and in turn raise up a child that's equally screwed up due to an unstable living environment.


I firmly believe that anyone offering counselling to someone considering abortion should be able to advise them to do what is best for them, not "following the beliefs of a biased institution" (ie religious organisations who often show horrible "abortion footage" -"foetus corpses" and so on, intended to shock the mother-to-be into refusing abortion). Like seriously. What kind of counselling is "If you abort this child, you are killing a life?" That's guilt tripping in my book. That is NOT counsel, that is "persuasion".

 

[katie_tully]

I think you're all arse clowns...Unless you agree with me, then you're awesome.

Anyway, labour is the most god damn awful experience on earth. I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy. Oh wait, sam04u, yes I would.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

100,000 is a negligible figure when you consider that that number includes miscarriages as well as abortions.

It sounds quite large next to the number 255,000, which is how many live births we have each year.

 

[The Brucemaster]

It sounds quite large next to the number 255,000, which is how many live births we have each year.

As opposed to dead births?

Anyway, the point is that the birth rate is therefore two and a half times the miscarriage/abortion rate. What's so problematic about that?
If we assume that the numbers are roughly 50/50 then that means 50,000 infant deaths can't be avoided.
That means that there are only 50,000 infant deaths that, even theoretically, can be avoided.
Even then, I would say that the amount of miscarriages that occur is somewhat more than that of abortions.

 

[bshoc]

100,000 is a negligible figure when you consider that that number includes miscarriages aswell as abortions.

Have a look at the figures of countries that publish both, if numbers from any other western country are to be belived, of those 100000 maybe 5%, if that, account for miscarriges, thats nothing.

 

[bshoc]

We are facing one of the greatest water shortages on records, have homeless people in the streets, numerous people trying to escape war-torn countries and enter a country such as ours...

And they're worried about our fertility rate?!

What about we start solving those problems by killing you off first? Heh since you're so clearly advocating the death of other people to solve them, why not you? What makes you worth anymore than the poor baby killed off during an abortion? Lead by example.

What happened to allowing women to be something more than a baby-making machine? We have Australians and potential Australians in plenty, assuming that we're still having children at all (and we are in a career-driven phase where women are choosing to put off childbirth so they can earn more $$$ in our expensive world, *cough*fuel prices*cough). Let those that want childern have them, let those that don't want them have their abortions, I say.

Let those who don't want them not create them in the first place, a good way to lower abortion rates would be to remove abortion as an option off the table, it would probably help STD infection rates also.

There is personal responsibility and then there is abuse under the guise of personal responsibility, abortion is the latter.

 

[bshoc]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20999564-23289,00.html



Religious chaplins and now this?

Should religion mix into this?

Right because only the minority secular humanist view is for whatever reason legitimate right? Give me a break. You almost make it sound like its some kind of crime - should religion mix into this? A better question is why should a secularist or athiest viewpoint be taken over any other, certainly democratic society demands equal say.

 

[KFunk]

What makes you worth anymore than the poor baby killed off during an abortion? Lead by example.

Firstly its not a good thing for the west, the third world can execute their children all they want, I dont really care, but here in the west is another matter.

What makes a first world baby worth any more than a baby born in the third world?

 

[bshoc]

What makes a first world baby worth any more than a baby born in the third world?

Because we actually have a say into what happens to those first world babies, or at least the Australian ones or whatever country we happen to be living in through government, law and voting.