Violence erupts in Sydney over anti-Islam film (7 Viewers)

[moll.]

R u reffering to my school?

Wow. You are dumb.

 

[JINOUGA]

Okay, yep. Lets get this straight. From what im aware of, this applies excusively to man slaughter. And the decision of whether the killer is to pay a compensation, or have his life taken, lies in the hands of the relatives of the one killed.

"O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty. (The Noble Quran, 2:178)"

that brings in one of the most powerful and yet oft ignored quote from the Qur'an, Al-Isra 17:15


"Whosoever goes astray goes astray at his own loss"

I.e. In a situation where a person does not adhere to Islamic principles i.e. Committing adultery, that is their concern and does not give you a precedent to interfere, it is "their own loss". It also highlights the fact if someone disobeys Islamic principles, they are not technically Muslim and thus Islamic jurisprudence cannot apply to theM

 

[7eleven]

Wow. You are dumb.

thank u, wtf is jin?

 

[JINOUGA]

This notion of an eye for an eye justice is further cemented by Al Nisa 16:126

“If you punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, indeed it is better for the patient. Endure you patiently."

So the notion of "an eye for an eye" is far broader than simply manslaughter. In fact, it outright states that is is BETTER to forgive whenever you are wronged, although you are given the right to punish them on equal terms and no more

 

[Peccadillo]

that brings in one of the most powerful and yet oft ignored quote from the Qur'an, Al-Isra 17:15


"Whosoever goes astray goes astray at his own loss"

I.e. In a situation where a person does not adhere to Islamic principles i.e. Committing adultery, that is their concern and does not give you a precedent to interfere, it is "their own loss". It also highlights the fact if someone disobeys Islamic principles, they are not technically Muslim and thus Islamic jurisprudence cannot apply to theM

I must ask in relation to one commiting sin... If one commits haram they are still a Muslim providing they follow the five pillars? If I drink alcohol because Im feeling stressed out or want to have a good time in a moment of haste... I am still a Muslim who has simply sinned.. surely.. So wouldnt I be subject to Islamic jurisprudence?

(Sorry Atheists I know this isnt a theology thread)

 

[JINOUGA]

I must ask in relation to one commiting sin... If one commits haram they are still a Muslim providing they follow the five pillars? If I drink alcohol because Im feeling stressed out or want to have a good time in a moment of haste... I am still a Muslim who has simply sinned.. surely.. So wouldnt I be subject to Islamic jurisprudence?

(Sorry Atheists I know this isnt a theology thread)

The very notion of Islamic jurispendence is imo flawed, mainly if you refer to Surah Al-Nisa 4:59

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger"

In other words, considering that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is dead, that leaves Allah as the sole judge of what is right and what is wrong based on Islam, ergo it is not up to anyone else apart from Allah to decide your punishment. Considering that "shirk" is the only sin that is said to be unforgiveable by Allah, the odd lapse will Insha Allah be forgiven

 

[7eleven]

This notion of an eye for an eye justice is further cemented by Al Nisa 16:126

“If you punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, indeed it is better for the patient. Endure you patiently."

So the notion of "an eye for an eye" is far broader than simply manslaughter. In fact, it outright states that is is BETTER to forgive whenever you are wronged, although you are given the right to punish them on equal terms and no more

You've just proven my point. Sharia and the aust judicial system are 2 different concepts and arent in line with each other.

 

[JINOUGA]

You've just proven my point. Sharia and the aust judicial system are 2 different concepts and arent in line with each other.

Um how? Essentially all this shows is that the concept of justice in Islam dictates punishment no more severe than the crime, something that is entirely compatible with many Western laws

 

[7eleven]

I must ask in relation to one commiting sin... If one commits haram they are still a Muslim providing they follow the five pillars? If I drink alcohol because Im feeling stressed out or want to have a good time in a moment of haste... I am still a Muslim who has simply sinned.. surely.. So wouldnt I be subject to Islamic jurisprudence?

(Sorry Atheists I know this isnt a theology thread)

+1

 

[Frostbitten]

Yeah except you guys are really dumb about it

The U.S goverment doesn't own YouTube and didn't create the video. Marching up to the embassy and demanding censorship of something that upset your poor sensibilities demonstrates an extremely clear lack of understanding of how democracy (and reality lol) works. Not that you guys care about democracy or freedom of speech, though.

I vote we should become dictatorship! Where no one can say anything and people will go missing randomly and tortured! Also the economy will go to shit which will be good for everyone, stupid democratic countries thinking that they are doing it right what are they to know pfft... (sarcasm)

 

[JINOUGA]

@7eleven

Furthermore, the Qur'an does not ever mention stoning as a suitable punishment for anything, it is only mentioned in some Hadiths, but as I have mentioned countless times before, the Hadiths are not the word of Allah, are filled with historical inconsistencies with dates etc. and as such are not necessarily relevant to following Islam

 

[Azure]

Guys, please use the relevant threads if you want to continue with the in-depth discussion re religion.

I understand that the issue at hand will inevitably involve discussion of religion, but we're kind of deviating from the purpose of the thread.

 

[7eleven]

@7eleven

Furthermore, the Qur'an does not ever mention stoning as a suitable punishment for anything, it is only mentioned in some Hadiths, but as I have mentioned countless times before, the Hadiths are not the word of Allah, are filled with historical inconsistencies with dates etc. and as such are not necessarily relevant to following Islam

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Whoever has one of his relations murdered has the choice either to receive compensation thereto or have the killer killed.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (2434) and Sahîh Muslim (1355)]
Mate im giving u authentic hadiths. I don't see why u don't believe these hadiths .Mind you, it is these very hadiths from which we know how to pray today. No where in the quran are instrctions given on "how to pray". Does this mean u have developed your own way of praying????? as u beleive "Hadiths are not the word of Allah, are filled with historical inconsistencies with dates"

 

[JINOUGA]

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Whoever has one of his relations murdered has the choice either to receive compensation thereto or have the killer killed.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (2434) and Sahîh Muslim (1355)]
Mate im giving u authentic hadiths. I don't see why u don't believe these hadiths .Mind you, it is these very hadiths from which we know how to pray today. Now where in the quran are instrctions given on "how to pray". Does this mean u have developed your own way of praying????? as u dont beleive in such hadiths.

i understand that this isn't really on topic so I will PM you my response so as not to deviate the thread

 

[Peccadillo]

I agree it's going off topic - I think its fair that Jin offers a different opinion on some of the possible misconceptions being made by 7eleven.

These misconceptions outline an important issue with what transpired on Saturday though. Many of those who held those discomforting placards base a lot of their beliefs on how they may misinterpret Islamic scripture. The article you cited Azure mentioned the fact many of the men were uneducated - and many of them quite probably did have a poor education. The public school system in the lakemba/bankstown region is a joke. I don't necessarily blame the education system in that regard - maybe they havent done enough - I dont have any inside information as to what has been done - I certainkly acknowledge that improving education in schools like Belmore Boys, Punchbowl Boys, Wiley Park Girls, Granville, Bass Hill (etc, etc etc) is a real uphill battle. Education (including religeous) is certainly something that needs to be addressed.

Engaging these student's is incredibly difficult. What is perplexing is the fact the Arab culture does promote education traditionally. It understands the importance of education. The Indo community are generally very well behaved in the area - Notice how there were no Indonesian Muslims at the protest, despite the indo-muslim population of Sydney being so large... Yet.. I didn't see any?

This is indicative that its not necessarily a problem of religion... Middle Eastern, muslim youth are so dis-engaged from wider society, including education... That needs to be addressed.

 

[Frostbitten]

I do condemn the violence, however i don't see why people cant hold such placards, isn't this "their freedom of speech" , under which the production of the movie is justified?

Sure. When say the 5-6 year old is holding it our society questions the morality of such an act as you are forcing on a message to a mentally undeveloped individual.

 

[soloooooo]

"Isn't the Sharia punishment for blasphemy death?"- That's a grey area within islam. Some scholars agree to this, whilst several others don't. There is strong evidences which support both sides of the argument. As a personal opinion, i believe death isnt the correct punishment.

Now I know you are trolling.

 

[soloooooo]

Blasphemy like any crime has levels. Not any form of blasphemy is punishable by death. Only extreme cases.

A married muslim woman in Iraq has consensual group sex with 6 American soldiers. Do you think she should be stoned to death?

 

[soloooooo]

Did the police really start pepperspraying people/unnecessarily confronting them before the protesters got violent?- umm yes. There was quite a lot of footage where, police had withdrawn their cans, and sprayed at the protesters, despite the protester making no apparent intent to move forward or attack them.

The police should have made a lot more arrests and bought in the water cannon (which was purchased for riots exactly like these).

 

[soloooooo]

All i have to say is your very arrogant to believe that film was not made with the intention to incite violence.

I guess the film worked then in showing that a large number of muslim people are not violent...