who believes religion is out dated (2 Viewers)

[MediterraneanM]

Yes, religion is a personal choice. Whether you adhere to any practises or not.

One needs to work out whether or not any form of religion is suitable to their own sets of individual beliefs.

Life is an individual journey with many areas to explore and/or ignore.

Problems arise when others try to invoke their own beliefs or lack of beliefs on others.

 

[gibbo153]

Ali puts too many things in inverted commas

 

[moll.]

Hey Ali, tell me how this isn't an offensive, anti-atheist claim made by Mediterranean:

But without any form of religion in any society, the 'base' ethical and moral structure with not be very strong. ESPECIALLY in today's largely IMMORAL society.

Cos to me that looks like he's making the rather bold claim that without religion there would be no basic morals or ethics. Which of course is a blatant lie on his part.

 

[MediterraneanM]

Hey Ali, tell me how this isn't an offensive, anti-atheist claim made by Mediterranean:


Cos to me that looks like he's making the rather bold claim that without religion there would be no basic morals or ethics. Which of course is a blatant lie on his part.

If you read the entire posts and also understand that this is not the media to write an entire thesis carefully explaining everything, thus some intent may either be lost in the summarised post OR misread by even the most well-intentioned reader.

Historically speaking, one of religions purposes was to provide some moral guidance on the communities of its times. I think most would agree on that?

The other section you highlighted was the concern that many of today's society's members share re: decay of so-called morals/ethics etc. The topic of morals and ethics take an entire university semester to cover, so you could imagine the limitations of this forum.

Many members of modern society, when referencing morals/ethics to religion, express the view that there has been a steady decline over the many centuries. This is not a new idea. Nor is it held by a few.

I'm sure we all know examples of such concepts without the need to go into too much detail and make posts 10,000 words in length.

 

[moll.]

If you read the entire posts and also understand that this is not the media to write an entire thesis carefully explaining everything, thus some intent may either be lost in the summarised post OR misread by even the most well-intentioned reader.

Historically speaking, one of religions purposes was to provide some moral guidance on the communities of its times. I think most would agree on that?

The other section you highlighted was the concern that many of today's society's members share re: decay of so-called morals/ethics etc. The topic of morals and ethics take an entire university semester to cover, so you could imagine the limitations of this forum.

Many members of modern society, when referencing morals/ethics to religion, express the view that there has been a steady decline over the many centuries. This is not a new idea. Nor is it held by a few.

I'm sure we all know examples of such concepts without the need to go into too much detail and make posts 10,000 words in length.

You never specified that you were referring to religion's historical role in society and there was no reason for me to assume so. Your quote uses present tense to state that without religion there would be no morals. So it is not unreasonable for me to conclude that you were talking about the present.
And even so, it is doubtful whether without religion there would be a complete debasement of ancient societal morals. Yes, people would no longer be fearing God's retribution for their sins, but God is not the only one with retribution. Ancient history is rife with dictatorial and authoritative leaders who ruled their lands with an iron fist. I hardly think that such leaders would be any different with or without religion and god, and as such they would have enforced basic laws and punishment upon their citizens, leading the people of that land to instead fear their king, not their god.
Besides which, whilst the ancients were uneducated, they were not evil animals who could not distinguish right from wrong. I highly doubt that all would have regressed to violent anarchy in the absence of both god and dictator. Humanism has a much more pertinent bond with the human spirit than does religion.

 

[MediterraneanM]

Right and wrong is not an innate judgement from birth.

At some stage of humanity, acceptable behaviour was derived upon by communities and its various leaders.

Not only is there varying interpretations of right and wrong between nations but also between subcultures within each nation.

Standards are set in legal doctrine, some based on ancient religious beliefs (depending upon the nation) and some derived out of necessity to keep pace with modern advancements.

Some people, whether Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Scientologist, Freemason etc, for various reasons whether it be the desire to believe in an Afterlife, whether it be the belief in the conservation of the human spirit (similar to the conservation of physical matter) etc have faith in a higher power and cannot reconcile that so many intricate yet seperate systems happened by mere chance. I recall hearing a scientist state, "to believe that all this was creating by mere chance is like believing a tornado can rip through a landfill and create an IBM computer".

On the other hand, some have no such belief in a divine entity.

This thread, just like the debate over religion can go on forever.

 

[LingstyleZ]

religion is certainly not outdated

but we shouldnt believe too much of it.

 

[moll.]

Right and wrong is not an innate judgement from birth.

At some stage of humanity, acceptable behaviour was derived upon by communities and its various leaders.

Not only is there varying interpretations of right and wrong between nations but also between subcultures within each nation.

Standards are set in legal doctrine, some based on ancient religious beliefs (depending upon the nation) and some derived out of necessity to keep pace with modern advancements.

Some people, whether Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Scientologist, Freemason etc, for various reasons whether it be the desire to believe in an Afterlife, whether it be the belief in the conservation of the human spirit (similar to the conservation of physical matter) etc have faith in a higher power and cannot reconcile that so many intricate yet seperate systems happened by mere chance. I recall hearing a scientist state, "to believe that all this was creating by mere chance is like believing a tornado can rip through a landfill and create an IBM computer".

On the other hand, some have no such belief in a divine entity.

This thread, just like the debate over religion can go on forever.

But people all across the world are born with some basic sense of right and wrong, with the exception of psychopaths, who are unable to see the world as the rest of us do. Studies have been done where remote Amazon tribes and inner-city Germans have had very similar morals and ethics when placed in a similar situation. Now of course those two groups have no contact whatsoever, either direct or indirect, so something must be binding their morality together.
This "thing" is in fact a common sense of humanity, where anything which hurts someone else, be it physical, psychological or emotional damage, is viewed as bad, and anything which helps them is viewed as good. If an action hurts some and helps others, it is here that collective morality is blurred, but generally it is seen as acceptable by both groups to sacrifice the few in favour of the many.
I'm not sure what the study was called, and i can't be bothered going upstairs to get my copy, but the study was quoted in Dawkins' God Delusion i believe and from memory it was conducted by a sociological institute of some kind.

As for your claim for intelligent design, please refer here to the Does God Exist thread in the NCAP forum and the 500 pages there on arguments against intellgent design and why your analogy is ridiculous.

 

[ZaraKu]

Stop attacking each other! Seriously... I mean someone had a go at what I said but I don't turn around and bitch at them, I accept it and get over it.

 

[MediterraneanM]

EDIT: Also the tornado... landfill etc... getting intelligent design vibes. I think you're mixing your metaphors.

Wasn't my metaphor. Read the post. Some U.S. scientist used it a couple of years ago.

Noone is telling anyone else whether to believe in religion or not. You either have faith or do not, and that can even change in time.

 

[MediterraneanM]

But people all across the world are born with some basic sense of right and wrong, with the exception of psychopaths, who are unable to see the world as the rest of us do. Studies have been done where remote Amazon tribes and inner-city Germans have had very similar morals and ethics when placed in a similar situation. Now of course those two groups have no contact whatsoever, either direct or indirect, so something must be binding their morality together.
This "thing" is in fact a common sense of humanity, where anything which hurts someone else, be it physical, psychological or emotional damage, is viewed as bad, and anything which helps them is viewed as good. If an action hurts some and helps others, it is here that collective morality is blurred, but generally it is seen as acceptable by both groups to sacrifice the few in favour of the many.
I'm not sure what the study was called, and i can't be bothered going upstairs to get my copy, but the study was quoted in Dawkins' God Delusion i believe and from memory it was conducted by a sociological institute of some kind.

As for your claim for intelligent design, please refer here to the Does God Exist thread in the NCAP forum and the 500 pages there on arguments against intellgent design and why your analogy is ridiculous.

Intelligent design is not a claim attributable to me as its originator, but I do, personally, agree with it.

This forum is not the medium for an in-depth discussion on the merits of religious beliefs or atheism etc.

What I do find interesting is that some may challenge those that do have a faith so vehemently as if they are personally offended someone else could dare to have a faith. I somewhat understand how someone can be an agnostic and not be sure of a God etc, but can't understand how someone can say so definitely that there absolutely is no divine entity. Has someone died and come back to life that I don't know about?

If your heart tells you that there is no God, and someone else's tells them to have faith (for whatever reason), how about they agree to disagree and see what happens after death?

PERSONAL CHOICE!!

 

[moll.]

Intelligent design is not a claim attributable to me as its originator, but I do, personally, agree with it.

This forum is not the medium for an in-depth discussion on the merits of religious beliefs or atheism etc.

What I do find interesting is that some may challenge those that do have a faith so vehemently as if they are personally offended someone else could dare to have a faith. I somewhat understand how someone can be an agnostic and not be sure of a God etc, but can't understand how someone can say so definitely that there absolutely is no divine entity. Has someone died and come back to life that I don't know about?

If your heart tells you that there is no God, and someone else's tells them to have faith (for whatever reason), how about they agree to disagree and see what happens after death?

PERSONAL CHOICE!!

In actual fact, there a virtually none of us here on BoS who are willing to make the claim that God most certainly does not exist. To make such a claim either for or against a god is folly, and the person who does so is kidding themselves, as there is no solid, irrefutable evidence for either case. In reality, agnosticism is the only logical stance.
That said, many of us detest religion for it's historical role as a divider of men, creator of hate and an instigator of war. We have no problem with a belief in God, but our problem instead lies with the blind following of religion and it's love of ignorance. We aim to remedy this by questioning all of your religious beliefs in the hope that this leads to you questioning them as well. However, any discussion about religion inevitably ends up being a discussion about God and it is here that you appear to take offense.
So, many apologies if i have seemed rude and brash upon the topic of your theism, as in reality i have no problem with your belief in God. On the other hand, i do not apologise for my words upon the topic of your religion, because - believe it or not - the religious beliefs of the world do affect me directly and indirectly through the violence and hatred that they breed and I would much prefer a heated argument to no questions upon the topic at all.

 

[MediterraneanM]

In actual fact, there a virtually none of us here on BoS who are willing to make the claim that God most certainly does not exist. To make such a claim either for or against a god is folly, and the person who does so is kidding themselves, as there is no solid, irrefutable evidence for either case. In reality, agnosticism is the only logical stance.
That said, many of us detest religion for it's historical role as a divider of men, creator of hate and an instigator of war. We have no problem with a belief in God, but our problem instead lies with the blind following of religion and it's love of ignorance. We aim to remedy this by questioning all of your religious beliefs in the hope that this leads to you questioning them as well. However, any discussion about religion inevitably ends up being a discussion about God and it is here that you appear to take offense.
So, many apologies if i have seemed rude and brash upon the topic of your theism, as in reality i have no problem with your belief in God. On the other hand, i do not apologise for my words upon the topic of your religion, because - believe it or not - the religious beliefs of the world do affect me directly and indirectly through the violence and hatred that they breed and I would much prefer a heated argument to no questions upon the topic at all.

Excellent post. I totally agree that blind following of any religion is not a wise practise.

During my high school years, during Ramadan, I would fast and maintain my fast regardless of sporting activities. When others are taking their pieces of oranges or drinks at half time, my mouth remained dry.

Peers would question why I fast, and why I did not eat pork/bacon etc, nor celebrate Christmas etc. So it struck me that I am a muslim due to my upbringing, and my peers mostly christians etc, and we all were following in the footsteps of our parents. So what if I was born into the wrong faith? or should I have a faith from all my observations around me in society?

I therefore went to the library and loaned many books on comparative religion. Read up on the Quran; Bible; Torah, Thalmud plus Eastern religions etc. Following my readings, I found that, for me, Islam rang the truest.

People not reading and relying on hearsay can be easily lead astray, so it is imperative to seek your own knowledge first-hand.

There is nothing wrong with questioning religion or religious beliefs. I did not have any problems with you re: those matters.

Yes, religion was used by various empires to expand their domains, but if one really reaches down and researches, they will find their own stance in the world re: faith or no faith.

Religion, itself, did not cause wars per se...but man's misdirection or misuse of so-called religious wars.

 

[moll.]

Excellent post. I totally agree that blind following of any religion is not a wise practice.

During my high school years, during Ramadan, I would fast and maintain my fast regardless of sporting activities. When others are taking their pieces of oranges or drinks at half time, my mouth remained dry.

Peers would question why I fast, and why I did not eat pork/bacon etc, nor celebrate Christmas etc. So it struck me that I am a Muslim due to my upbringing, and my peers mostly Christians etc, and we all were following in the footsteps of our parents. So what if I was born into the wrong faith? or should I have a faith from all my observations around me in society?

I therefore went to the library and loaned many books on comparative religion. Read up on the Quran; Bible; Torah, Talmud plus Eastern religions etc. Following my readings, I found that, for me, Islam rang the truest.

People not reading and relying on hearsay can be easily lead astray, so it is imperative to seek your own knowledge first-hand.

There is nothing wrong with questioning religion or religious beliefs. I did not have any problems with you re: those matters.

Congratulations upon this then and i applaud you for your inquisitiveness. Out of curiosity, however, did you also do any research outside of the theistic belief systems, such as upon humanism, buddhism, atheism, agnosticism or deism? And did you also do any research into the scientific explanations for creation?

Yes, religion was used by various empires to expand their domains, but if one really reaches down and researches, they will find their own stance in the world re: faith or no faith.

Religion, itself, did not cause wars per se...but man's misdirection or misuse of so-called religious wars.

Personally, I would say that it was not the misuse of the wars, but the misuse of religion itself which caused the violence and hatred. To this you will no doubt say something along the lines of "well that's ok then, because obviously the interpretation of the instigator was the wrong one but the religion which he used is still remains sound."
But i disagree. The mere fact that a religion and it's dogma can be interpreted in such a way by even the most crazed and fanatic mind calls into doubt the religion itself. If the words of a religious text that has been directly inscribed from God can be warped to such differing extents, then God's words must not be infallible and the religion itself is questionable.

 

[MediterraneanM]

Congratulations upon this then and i applaud you for your inquisitiveness. Out of curiosity, however, did you also do any research outside of the theistic belief systems, such as upon humanism, buddhism, atheism, agnosticism or deism? And did you also do any research into the scientific explanations for creation?

Yes, I looked into all forms of beliefs that you cited.

I mentioned in previous posts that, in my view, it was the misuse of religion that created and still created problems in modern society.

Like everything I suppose, mankind is apt at misuse (whether that be religion, or science and technology).

 

[NorthRiversMatt]

Its not outdated at all. It has been in bible for thousands of years. This shit society make it outdated.

 

[Will Shakespear]

Its not outdated at all. It has been in bible for thousands of years. This shit society make it outdated.

the bible predicted that uac would become corrupt and give country kids shit UAIs

 

[moll.]

the bible predicted that uac would become corrupt and give country kids shit UAIs

Nah, it was me who predicted that.

 

[gibbo153]

haha trust matt to come in with such an intelligent insight.

does he like, plan a sentence in his head then just fails to order words correctly?

 

[be.yourself]

god judges.
thats the myth of the religions.
he/she NEVER judges.