Who thinks the HSC is unfair? (2 Viewers)

[boganxcore]

Random. But thanks loads

yea it was random but you're a fuckin mad drawer so it doesnt matter lol

did you win visual arts

 

[noelknows]

i didn't suggest their entire system, i never said anything about getting rid of hecs. unlike the US the majority of our tertiary education is public so that part would remain the same, only different methods of admission, it has nothing to do with those who can pay upfront have preference and the system would still be heavily reliant on marks but the universities will actually see where these marks came from rather then just an index number

How is that any improvement? On observation of marks, they would still take the students who would have got the better ATARs. So philphie, I beat you in our previous debate?

 

[Cinnamonster]

yea it was random but you're a fuckin mad drawer so it doesnt matter lol

did you win visual arts

Heh, thanks ^_^
91, band 6

 

[ajdlinux]

Theres a difference between debating the merits of the HSC and making people feel like shit about their career choices. The HSC affects you, the life choices of others do not.

Okay, you have a point with regards to my specific example. But the fact is, people are allowed to discuss and debate things which don't directly affect them. It's not okay to be personally hostile to someone about something like their subject choices, but I haven't really encountered that - the 'hostility' is directed more towards the subject as a whole than the people in it.

 

[-may-cat-]

Okay, you have a point with regards to my specific example. But the fact is, people are allowed to discuss and debate things which don't directly affect them. It's not okay to be personally hostile to someone about something like their subject choices, but I haven't really encountered that - the 'hostility' is directed more towards the subject as a whole than the people in it.

I'm not saying that people can't do it, i just don't understand why they do.

 

[ajdlinux]

i didn't suggest their entire system, i never said anything about getting rid of hecs. unlike the US the majority of our tertiary education is public so that part would remain the same, only different methods of admission, it has nothing to do with those who can pay upfront have preference and the system would still be heavily reliant on marks but the universities will actually see where these marks came from rather then just an index number

Universities in Australia are adopting a mixed ATAR/bonus points approach for almost everything these days, recognising that sometimes the ATAR alone isn't the full picture, but on the whole, they accept the idea that the ATAR is an adequate measure of overall academic performance.

And before we contemplate a switch to a US-like admissions system, I'd like to know if there's any evidence that suggests they do better than we do.

 

[noelknows]

Okay, you have a point with regards to my specific example. But the fact is, people are allowed to discuss and debate things which don't directly affect them. It's not okay to be personally hostile to someone about something like their subject choices, but I haven't really encountered that - the 'hostility' is directed more towards the subject as a whole than the people in it.

Some subjects, are just that: our subjects. They are subservient, and below us. They deserve to be persecuted.

 

[ajdlinux]

I'm not saying that people can't do it, i just don't understand why they do.

Because people find it an interesting topic of discussion - what they like, what they don't like, what value judgments they make about things. It's the same as a lot of discussion topics, there's no real 'reason' why you should talk about them, but they're interesting topics.

 

[philphie]

The US system developed mostly as a consequence of their non-uniform secondary school system, with more state and local government bodies setting different educational standards, and many different types of high school diplomas. I don't know if there's any evidence to suggest whether that sort of decentralised system is on the whole better or worse than the more uniform system we have here.

well if your problem is with varied standards how many people in nsw study tertiary education outside their state? barely any. even if this was a major problem the differences in standards in states here are minimal so you would still have a fair chance. it would work completely differently in Australia seeing how our tertiary education consists of on majority public institutions.

one example although quite a rare situation is when you have a studnet who studies only science/maths subjects but gains an atar high enough to study law, in which in this circumstance the student wants to do but then this particular student has no pre requiste knowledge or that type of analytical thinking that is appropriate to that degree, but then the university would not be aware of this because all they have to this student's name is a number. my mate's cousin was actually in this exact circumstance however somehow she managed to become a high profile solicitor working for MAcquarie Bank, but then again that's one person, and yes i realise the fallacy in my 'one person' rationalisation.

 

[-may-cat-]

Because people find it an interesting topic of discussion - what they like, what they don't like, what value judgments they make about things. It's the same as a lot of discussion topics, there's no real 'reason' why you should talk about them, but they're interesting topics.

*shrugs* I guess i just personally find it a bit ridiculous, peoples likes and dislikes are their own i don't understand why people feel the need to get aggressive over it. You can discuss things objectively as an interesting means of comparison without becoming hostile. Perhaps it makes people feel better and more justified in their own life choices.

 

[jellybelly59]

ok, i just thought of something, get uac out of the picture. do the hsc as it is and at the end of it we have a report card with our marks on it. that way there isn't any of this scaling business. then we personally approach whatever uni we want, it works for the Americans.if your marks aren't enough, an essay, extracurriculars, an interview.the education system in America is way larger than ours and they can manage this system, why can't we? so there isn't any of this complaining about scaling because different kinds of subjects won't be compared.


the system is too uniform, and quite unnecessarily as well.

NO WAY - your system is more flawed than the hsc is now. Someone previously said - it's too decentralised. The system your suggesting would make extension 2 mathematics at the same level as general maths. For some students no scaling would not give incentive to students to be ambitious in their study . Placing the american system as a standard is not a good way to go considering the americans have one of the WORST public schooling systems amongst the developed nations.

 

[ajdlinux]

well if your problem is with varied standards how many people in nsw study tertiary education outside their state? barely any. even if this was a major problem the differences in standards in states here are minimal so you would still have a fair chance. it would work completely differently in Australia seeing how our tertiary education consists of on majority public institutions.

I'm not saying that's an issue, I'm merely pointing out that the American model was not a deliberate decision to decentralise, whereas in Australia we did make a deliberate decision to centralise. So they didn't establish the system specifically to address your concerns.

one example although quite a rare situation is when you have a studnet who studies only science/maths subjects but gains an atar high enough to study law, in which in this circumstance the student wants to do but then this particular student has no pre requiste knowledge or that type of analytical thinking that is appropriate to that degree, but then the university would not be aware of this because all they have to this student's name is a number. my mate's cousin was actually in this exact circumstance however somehow she managed to become a high profile solicitor working for MAcquarie Bank, but then again that's one person, and yes i realise the fallacy in my 'one person' rationalisation.

If they did enrol in Law, and did in fact lack the requisite skills to complete the degree, then they'll fail. Quite simply, applicants with those high ATARs aren't stupid - they won't enrol in a degree which they think they will fail at. (And BTW, maths logic and law overlaps quite well, I think )

 

[ajdlinux]

Perhaps it makes people feel better and more justified in their own life choices.

Yeah, that's probably a reason... :/

 

[-may-cat-]

Yeah, that's probably a reason... :/

I think that's pretty sad to be honest, but oh well, humanity will be how it is i suppose.

 

[jellybelly59]

If they did enrol in Law, and did in fact lack the requisite skills to complete the degree, then they'll fail. Quite simply, applicants with those high ATARs aren't stupid - they won't enrol in a degree which they think they will fail at. (And BTW, maths logic and law overlaps quite well, I think )

I hope to god it doesn't LOL

 

[philphie]

NO WAY - your system is more flawed than the hsc is now. Someone previously said - it's too decentralised. The system your suggesting would make extension 2 mathematics at the same level as general maths. For some students no scaling would not give incentive to students to be ambitious in their study . Placing the american system as a standard is not a good way to go considering the americans have one of the WORST public schooling systems amongst the developed nations.

America has an issue of ensuring students are as smart as they can be, my proposition has absolutely nothing to do with that, i'm talking about a new admissions system. plus our landscape is entirely different to theirs, we have a smaller population to deal with. the point of making a direct offer to a university with a report of your scores is to see if you are capable of that PARTICULAR degree, hence there comes the necessity for tertiary institutions to place pre requisites. so ext2 maths would not be placed on the same level as general maths

 

[ajdlinux]

I think that's pretty sad to be honest, but oh well, humanity will be how it is i suppose.

I'll agree with you here.

I hope to god it doesn't LOL

Well, I happen to be personally interested in both maths and law, and do acceptably in the relevant HSC subjects, so...

 

[noelknows]

well if your problem is with varied standards how many people in nsw study tertiary education outside their state? barely any. even if this was a major problem the differences in standards in states here are minimal so you would still have a fair chance. it would work completely differently in Australia seeing how our tertiary education consists of on majority public institutions.

one example although quite a rare situation is when you have a studnet who studies only science/maths subjects but gains an atar high enough to study law, in which in this circumstance the student wants to do but then this particular student has no pre requiste knowledge or that type of analytical thinking that is appropriate to that degree, but then the university would not be aware of this because all they have to this student's name is a number. my mate's cousin was actually in this exact circumstance however somehow she managed to become a high profile solicitor working for MAcquarie Bank, but then again that's one person, and yes i realise the fallacy in my 'one person' rationalisation.

If we changed to a show-your-actual-subject-marks system, those presenting, for instance, good humanities marks with the intent of doing journalism, would be the same people doing journalism - with the requisite ATAR - because they tended towards the humanities.

Doing non-humanities, or vice versa, is no reasonble grounds to deny entry into a humanity-based course, or vice versa. As for your mate's cousin, there's nothing surprising there. The analytical thinking of the non-humanities is ideal for law. I know of many firms that love seeing 'completed HSC 4 unit maths' on an applicants resume.

 

[Ethanescence]

i hope to god it doesn't lol

+1

 

[ajdlinux]

If we changed to a show-your-actual-subject-marks system, those presenting, for instance, good humanities marks with the intent of doing journalism, would be the same people doing journalism - with the requisite ATAR - because they tended towards the humanities.

Doing non-humanities, or vice versa, is no reasonble grounds to deny entry into a humanity-based course, or vice versa. As for your mate's cousin, there's nothing surprising there. The analytical thinking of the non-humanities is ideal for law. I know of many firms that love seeing 'completed HSC 4 unit maths' on an applicants resume.

+1. If most humanities students get lower ATARs, the course cutoffs will change to match that fact. But otherwise, universities would prefer to admit those with the highest overall level of academic achievement, as expressed through the ATAR.