World Youth Day 08 (2 Viewers)

[Slidey]

Somebody is sure flying something.

 

[bigneh]

Youth is also when you can start to critically and honestly accept the intellectual validity of Christianity. It's an excellent festival to celebrate the journey, the pilgrimage, to faith. I see it as almost a coming of age ritual, when you first fly your colours up your mast

So basically, 'quick they are figuring it out! we need more bullshit!'

 

[Kwayera]

Wow I didn't see that.

Intellectual validity of Christianity? Plzexplayn.

 

[Iron]

Wow I didn't see that.

Intellectual validity of Christianity? Plzexplayn.

1. When you come to a point where you have a pretty decent grasp of how stuff works, and at the end of it still cant deny the possibility of Christianity
2. Specific theology that I wont flesh out here

 

[Enteebee]

I'm not sure if Iron is trolling or has decided to be one of those who tout the majesty of whatever religious group they're looking at merely for the fact that they are a large, established body that it'd be cool to get along with. Personally I'd like to hear his thoughts on the intellectual validity in aboriginal dreamtime stories.

 

[Iron]

I think that we should get over trolling. Maybe I am. Does it matter?
Secondly, personally, I'm not quite arrogant enough to claim which faiths are true, but I like to think that any belief in intelligent design, as long as it is expressed in 'good' faith and good deeds, is valid. And goodness is necessarily universal, absolute, (not cultural, relative) and is located in the conscience.

 

[Enteebee]

I think that we should get over trolling. Maybe I am. Does it matter?

It's the old bait and switch, I address your comments then you say "oh well I was trolling", it's a bit of a defense mechanism sometimes.

but I like to think that any belief in intelligent design, as long as it is expressed in 'good' faith and good deeds, is valid.

Rainbow serpent? Amun-Ra? Jumala? Odin? Xenu? My point is that you've latched onto the largest, most established church that has by far the greatest academic record for reasons that appear to potentially apply to any number of believes.

And goodness is necessarily universal, absolute, (not cultural, relative) and is located in the conscience.

Because it makes you happy for that to be so?

 

[Iron]

Because it satisfies my limited reasoning capabilities. Same with Christianity; it's one of the largest and has included many great thinkers. Im not going to pretend that religion has never been used as a 'filler' for things unknown. It has and still is to many. But as far as knoweldge has advanced - sometimes, unfortunately, in the face of conservative religious opposition - we can still say that the fundamental question of existence, of faith, truth and meaning, is still a very religious question and need not, but certainly can and sometimes must, conflict with today's truths.

 

[emytaylor164]

im not going since the pope claimed it adds to ur good works to get into heaven when good works dont get you into heaven faith does

 

[melsc]

What i do strongly resent however is the use of taxpayer funds to help pay for such an event. Last time i checked the Catholic Church was not exactly poor, and in any case government should not be subsidising religion.

Agreed. I wont be going and am tossing up how much my trip in to work will be disrupted and if its worth while going in, although its a bit frustrating that it might make it hard for me to go in to the city as I need the money

 

[bigneh]

1. When you come to a point where you have a pretty decent grasp of how stuff works, and at the end of it still cant deny the possibility of Christianity

Are you trying to say you cant deny that Christianity may be true? If so, it is foolish (even though i hate that word) to believe that there is any truth in Christianity.

any belief in intelligent design, as long as it is expressed in 'good' faith and good deeds, is valid.

No believe in ID is intellectually valid, its intellectually absent.

im not going since the pope claimed it adds to ur good works to get into heaven when good works dont get you into heaven faith does

Even if there was a heaven, why wouldnt good deeds get you in instead of blind faith? The chance that your religion happens to be the correct out of all of them is very slim, so if you are religious i hope that good deeds do get you into heaven.

Christianity; it's one of the largest and has included many great thinkers.

I think you need a better source for great thinkers, they have had what.. 3?

we can still say that the fundamental question of existence, of faith, truth and meaning, is still a very religious question and need not, but certainly can and sometimes must, conflict with today's truths.

Just because we dont know these fundamental questions doesnt mean it becomes a religious one, that is simply filling the gap. If you need faith to believe in something, then that somethings chance of being true is greatly diminshed.

 

[Slidey]

im not going since the pope claimed it adds to ur good works to get into heaven when good works dont get you into heaven faith does

Sorry to tell you this, but God isn't going to let you into heaven if you're a fucked up asshole who likes to burn kittens and babies just because you believe he exists. I'm sure that telling yourself otherwise helps you sleep at night, but believing it won't make it real.

 

[Iron]

First, lets try and keep this to the other thread.
But I will repeat that the fundamental questions i've mentioned do require faith, and always will - from religious nutters to soviet atheist. They can never be discovered by peering through a microscope.
The concept of faith isnt so daunting when you accept that there really is no truth or absolute reason.

 

[bigneh]

I would say we 'may' never know, for example it was said that we will never know what far off planets are made from. Now through technology, through certain telescopes we can actualy know what planets are made of. Tell someone a century ago that a man has landed on the moon for example.

What im saying is just because we dont know at this point does not give religious claims any merit. Anyone is capable of saying any bullshit about fundamental questions, but who would you rather listen to, a religious nut a couple thousands of years ago with absolutely no concept of the world around him, or say a scientist?

A good point from Christopher Hitchens about ID is that they (those who are dumb enough to believe it) discredit the basic facts of science with not even an attempt to prove it, then end up in the hospital at some point in time and briefly accept that evolution is correct. (Hitchens obviously puts it better )

 

[Enteebee]

First, lets try and keep this to the other thread.
But I will repeat that the fundamental questions i've mentioned do require faith, and always will - from religious nutters to soviet atheist. They can never be discovered by peering through a microscope.
The concept of faith isnt so daunting when you accept that there really is no truth or absolute reason.

I accept that there is no truth or absolute reason yet I still find religious faith totally abhorrent to critical thinking, mainly because I see no way to be consistent in your faith in God without fucking that up elsewhere in your day to day logic. Your thinking on the face of it seems to leave it wide open for people to pray to god to cure their child's illness.

 

[Iron]

@bigneh

You will notice that I dispute no scientific discovery. Christianity should not be anti-intellectual - there is no beef with knowledge.
But to suggest that Christ was mad and had 'no concept of the world around him' is totally ignorant and unworthy of response. You become the unreasonable, unthinking creature that you convince yourself that you’re fighting.

This festival is not an invitation for debate. It is a celebration for those who believe that they have discovered real, tangible, transcendent truth. It is something far deeper, far richer, far more significant than any other faltering, hedonistic, self-centred, vulgar, barbaric ideology on offer.

If you’re happy to merely skim the surface of the great ocean of truth and meaning, then that’s your affair. I recall some saying about swine and pearls: you’ll find no argument from me brother.

 

[Enteebee]

You will notice that I dispute no scientific discovery. Christianity should not be anti-intellectual - there is no beef with knowledge.

The concept of faith isnt so daunting when you accept that there really is no truth or absolute reason.

If there is no truth or absolute reason then it calls into question scientific discovery... In fact I would say the example of belief in God/Supernatural entities necessarily (without some sort of double think) harms a belief in scientific truths.

This festival is not an invitation for debate. It is a celebration for those who believe that they have discovered real, tangible, transcendent truth. It is something far deeper, far richer, far more significant than any other faltering, hedonistic, self-centred, vulgar, barbaric ideology on offer.

They don't stop being hedonistic or self centred... the religious text just becomes a filter/justification for otherwise concieved ideals. Personally I worry a lot more about people who believe they have discovered 'transcendent truth' than those who accept they have a 'faltering' uncertain conception of truth.

 

[Iron]

I accept that there is no truth or absolute reason yet I still find religious faith totally abhorrent to critical thinking, mainly because I see no way to be consistent in your faith in God without fucking that up elsewhere in your day to day logic. Your thinking on the face of it seems to leave it wide open for people to pray to god to cure their child's illness.

Reminds me of the story about the guy in the flood. The radio tells him a flood's coming and he says 'I'm a religious person, God will save me'. The water floods the house and he's forced to the roof. A guy with a boat comes by and says 'Get in or you'll drown'. Same response, '..God will save me'. Finally, he's about to drown and a helicopter comes and drops a ladder 'Grab on!' 'No! Im religious, God will save me'. /Dies /Heaven /to God, Q"Why didnt you save me?" A"I sent you a messenger, a boat, a helicopter"

O AHAR. You know, the futurama episode where he says at the end 'If you do it right, it's like youve done nothing at all'

I have no comment for your other matters

 

[Iron]

He doesnt say we'll burn for eternity in hell

 

[Enteebee]

I honestly don't know if you've understood my objection... you just made a reasoned argument yet you're saying that there is no truth or reason. In order to make the argument you made you're going to need to start constructing a reality on which to base it and it is there within that construction its self that I believe you will find religious faith to be inconsistent and irrational. It seems to me that you want to throw away all that constructed reality that 'relativists' will harp on about because in the end it's 'objectively' meaningless, thus allowing you to make the argument for faith. Yet at the same time, in practice, you use such a construction to justify your philosophical beliefs.

Sounds to me like special pleading for faith.