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You KNOW you're an economics nerd when.. (2 Viewers)

melanieeeee.

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gnrlies said:
Havent you been listening to her and her colleagues spout off about all these things they want to do? These things cost money. 10 billion is an arbitrary number but it it would be in the ballpark of the costs of some of these things.
of course they cost money but making up some number and saying that is how much she is going to spend is ridiculously inaccurate an incorrect



Australia is one of the only countries in the world to have compulsory voting. Interestingly Italy and Belgium are the only other OECD nations that have compulsory voting. Do you think our democracy is any better than in Germany, or the UK??? As for the USA; how has this not worked over there? The definitial of democracy is that you allow your people to choose who they want as their leaders. If you are indifferent - you dont vote at all. In Australia, how do people who are indifferent vote? they cant so they do a donkey vote. Why should force these people to vote? Better yet, why should we fine them if they dont vote?
yes but it obviously means more advertising for the govenment which means more money wasted. america has a low voting turn up. even people who know who they want to win (for the right reasons) dont end up voting most of the time because they are too lazy, dont have time etc. what is so wrong with Australia's system?



Instead I will post something from Wikipedia for you as you could really write a book on why it doesn't work. I wont do this, but I will give you a taste of some of the arguements and you can follow them up at your own leisure.

yeah because wiki is such a realible source :rolleyes:
also that doesn't really describe the way that the system will fail. it just argues that either one way or the other way is better.


You say this with such certainty! As I said - I am a libertarian so I completely disagree with what you are saying with respect to government needing to intervene. Governments are needed to define and enforce property rights and provide certain public goods that are needed, and that cannot be provided by the private sector. The only form of intervention that I accept is the type that achieves an important short term goal where the government may be able to achieve it better through regulation than by allowing the market to solve the problem (e.g. if global warming is a problem, then the market is not adjusting quickly enough so intervention in markets may be required).
Which is want the current system is like now.

As for Rudd

Other than beginning his process of dismantling workchoices (which was not a step in the right direction - no pun intended); Rudd has done nothing.Absolutely nothing. He has done nothing but symbolic gestures and media management. Hopefully this wont be true when he is given more time (he's got at least 2.5 years to impress); but at the moment he has done nothing that I can judge him on. This is not a good sign. A new government should have a vision. Their first 12 months should be their most active and ambitious. I dont see either from Rudd. I dont discredit the man so much as I discredit the party. I would rather have Rudd leading the Labor party than any alternative person. But just because Rudd is leader doesn't mean he can do what he wants. There will come a time when his party starts making demands. I think Rudd will likely be the Labor equivalent of Malcolm Fraser.
I am so glad to see that he did abolish workchoices. As for nothing, he has abolished work choices as you have said and pretty much made a reformation to the labour market in Australia. That is not a small thing to do. Also what makes you think that Howard would have done a better job if he was re-elected.
 
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BackCountrySnow

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gnrlies said:
I didn't call them communists, I merely said that communists desire a prosperous economy but that doesn't mean that their central planning will achieve it.

In the same way as I wish to win my game of football on the weekend, but that doesnt garuntee my success if im using a completely incorrect set of tactics.
Yeah, centrally planned economies don't really work. China's actually very capitalist now.

But i don't think too little intervention is dangerous too.
 

melanieeeee.

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BackCountrySnow said:
Yeah, centrally planned economies don't really work. China's actually very capitalist now.

But i don't think too little intervention is dangerous too.
I agree but its not as if Rudd is all of a sudden going to dramatically increase government intervention. Rudd's has already made stated his stance on where things will lie and it does not include completely using government intervention. Even with the abolishment of AWA's there are still collective barganing agreements which is a decentralised system with some government intervention.
 

yeeshu

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melanieeeee. said:
Ross Gittins is fucking awesome :D
lolz read the economist...makes ross gittens sound like a 5 year old hahahah:wave:
 

gnrlies

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melanieeeee. said:
of course they cost money but making up some number and saying that is how much she is going to spend is ridiculously inaccurate an incorrect
Theres a difference between 'making up' a number and making an educated guess. Go and have a look at the budget papers and you will see that 10 billion dollars is a fairly conservative number. If anything she would most likely desire to spend more rather than less.

yes but it obviously means more advertising for the govenment which means more money wasted. america has a low voting turn up. even people who know who they want to win (for the right reasons) dont end up voting most of the time because they are too lazy, dont have time etc. what is so wrong with Australia's system?
Why is it that you think more advertising would be needed? I cannot see how you could possibly come to that conclusion. In any case political advertising is paid for by the political parties not taxpayers. Thats the brilliance of a free society. If you cant be bothered showing up, it demonstrates that you would prefer to watch tv that be forced to go and vote. Unfortunately our society is not as 'free' as it might be in this regard. What is wrong with our system? well it forces people to make decisions without necessarily thinking about it. It forces people to do things that they dont necessarily want to. And it costs a shit load of money.

yeah because wiki is such a realible source :rolleyes:
also that doesn't really describe the way that the system will fail. it just argues that either one way or the other way is better.
What are you on about? That wikipedia quote made reference to several third way critiques (which by and large was a reasonable summary although there would be many more critiques not included there). I will say it again. I gave you that so that you can investigate some further reading if you wish. Dont be so obvious and claim that its wrong because it was on wikipedia. Wikipedia is actually a fairly good source of information despite what people would have you believe.

Which is want the current system is like now.
Are you serious?

Do you even know what our government does with our money? (or should I say wastes). And of course Im not talking about Rudd here, im talking about every government we've had since the depression.

I am so glad to see that he did abolish workchoices. As for nothing, he has abolished work choices as you have said and pretty much made a reformation to the labour market in Australia. That is not a small thing to do. Also what makes you think that Howard would have done a better job if he was re-elected.
A reform in the completely wrong direction. Nothing to be proud of.

It was never going to be about Howard for me. It was always going to be about the principles of the liberal party. I am not a conservative, but personally I am less concerned about my personal freedom than my economic freedom (because by and large there are no laws that restrict me other than economic ones). Subsequently I vote for these values. These are not values present within the labor party.
 

melanieeeee.

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gnrlies said:
Theres a difference between 'making up' a number and making an educated guess. Go and have a look at the budget papers and you will see that 10 billion dollars is a fairly conservative number. If anything she would most likely desire to spend more rather than less.
ahahahahahhahahha.
educated guess my arse, stop accusing them of something which you think is an 'educated guess'.

Why is it that you think more advertising would be needed? I cannot see how you could possibly come to that conclusion. In any case political advertising is paid for by the political parties not taxpayers. Thats the brilliance of a free society. If you cant be bothered showing up, it demonstrates that you would prefer to watch tv that be forced to go and vote. Unfortunately our society is not as 'free' as it might be in this regard. What is wrong with our system? well it forces people to make decisions without necessarily thinking about it. It forces people to do things that they dont necessarily want to. And it costs a shit load of money.
who gives a shit what you think it isn't going to happen for a long while.



What are you on about? That wikipedia quote made reference to several third way critiques (which by and large was a reasonable summary although there would be many more critiques not included there). I will say it again. I gave you that so that you can investigate some further reading if you wish. Dont be so obvious and claim that its wrong because it was on wikipedia. Wikipedia is actually a fairly good source of information despite what people would have you believe.
do you know why uni's think that referencing wiki is a no no?
and did you even read my comment.
me said:
also that doesn't really describe the way that the system will fail. it just argues that either one way or the other way is better.


Are you serious?

Do you even know what our government does with our money? (or should I say wastes). And of course Im not talking about Rudd here, im talking about every government we've had since the depression.
of course i know that government wastes money at times. that wasn't even what i meant.
ok if every government does it why should it be seen as a bad thing if Rudd does it (not saying that he does)



A reform in the completely wrong direction. Nothing to be proud of.

It was never going to be about Howard for me. It was always going to be about the principles of the liberal party. I am not a conservative, but personally I am less concerned about my personal freedom than my economic freedom (because by and large there are no laws that restrict me other than economic ones). Subsequently I vote for these values. These are not values present within the labor party.
well i think it is definitely a turn to the right direction. and i think Rudd should be proud to do it.

how is it the wrong direction? how has AWA's been a better choice? who says that there can't be economic freedom with Rudd? if you say that Rudd is copying many of Howards policies (of course not AWA's), why is it a big deal? you should know that from studying economics that reducing inequality is a part of economics. its not even about personal freedom, it about creating a fair enough environment that so that it doesn't end up becoming a social problem that will ultimately effect the economy in a negative way.
 
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gnrlies

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melanieeeee. said:
ahahahahahhahahha.
educated guess my arse, stop accusing the policy of something which you think is an 'educated guess'.
Ok Ok Ok... I got it wrong after all. Secrety Julia Gillard is an economic conservative and is going to cut taxes, and lower expenditure for all.... Unlikely. Your issue with $10bn is besides the point. The fact is that she isn't an economic conservative and she has some grand plans that she has articulated numerous times. As I said if you have a look at the budget papers you will find that $10bn is a very minute amount. In fact it represents less than 1% of GDP. It would be highly improbable that spending will go up by less than 1% let alone this figure being innacurate. But as I said this is besides the point. Her plans for childcare alone are likely to cost a few billion dollars.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2220245.htm

who gives a shit what you think it isn't going to happen for a long while.
No it wont but was that ever the point?

do you know why uni's think that referencing wiki is a no no?
and did you even read my comment.
HELLO! this isn't a formal piece of academic writing. If its such a big deal go and read the citations listed within the text article. I would recommend anything by the Austrian or Chicago schools of economics when it comes to this.

No the wikipedia quote didn't describe why it wouldn't work but it refers to other texts that will (which is precisely why your statement was foolish because the wiki quotation did nothing other than refer to other works!). The critique is that there is no such thing as a mix between free markets and intervention. If you believe free markets work, then you should also believe that free markets will always produce the best results. If you dont believe in this then why on earth would you utilise free market policies? if you do believe in this then why would you intervene in markets? this is the central critique progressed by its opponents. Free market capitalism is a pure theory that need not be compromised. If you compromise it, you worsen the outcomes. Third way politics is an inconsistent approach that does nothing other than appease competing political interests. It doesn't produce effective outcomes.


of course i know that government wastes money at times. that wasn't even what i meant.
ok if every government does it why should it be seen as a bad thing if Rudd does it (not saying that he does)
??? why is it bad? havent we just been debating this whole issue since the beginning?

Rudd will do it. He's already done it. He couldn't even stand solid to political pressure when it came to the one of carers and seniors bonus. I will reserve judgement until a few budgets have gone by, but the signs arent promising. But thats to be expected. No Labor government in history has ever had the ethos of "small government" in mind.


well i think it is definitely a turn to the right direction. and i think Rudd should be proud to do it.

how is it the wrong direction? how has AWA's been a better choice? who says that there can't be economic freedom with Rudd? if you say that Rudd is copying many of Howards policies (of course not AWA's)? you should know that from studying economics that reducing inequality a part of economics. its not even about person freedom, it about creating a fair enough environment that so that it doesn't end up becoming a social problem that will ultimately effect the economy in a negative way.
I know you are only studying year 12 economics so I wont expect you to have studied labour markets; but labour market deregulation produces positive outcomes for both employees and employers.

As for AWA's - these agreements actually enhance the protection of employees. We've always had individual contracts but these have been common law arrangements which means that if you have an issue with the agreement, or your employer, you have to pay a bloody lawyer to help you out. How is that a better alternative to an AWA that allows you to fall under the formal industrial relations system and give you the formal rights of concilliation and arbitration?

As for wages, how does it improve the distribution of income if we artificially inflate wages such that we have unemployment as those with low skills are too expensive to be hired by employers? there are in fact a lot of jobless people out there who would have jobs if employers could pay them the appropriate rate for a given job. Personally I do not advocate for the removal of minimum wages (although many do) but I do believe that our minimum wage is far too high. We have the highest minimum wage in the world. Whilst workchoices itself didn't entail lowering or removing minimum wages - it did allow employers to negotiate a contract that that made it feasible to employ people that they otherwise couldn't.
 
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munchiecrunchie

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I think we can officially crown gnrlies and melanieeeeee as the biggest economics nerds around here.

You guys should make your own little thread.
 

BackCountrySnow

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melanie always seems to get into these massive quoting debates lol.
about pretty much anything hahaha.
But it's entertaining..
 

SomeoneCool

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gnrlies said:
Huh?

When did Howard ever say he would lower interest rates? It was his government that made the bank completely independent in 1996?
Just grab yourself a transcript of some of Howard's pre-election campaigns and you will hear the word "interest rates" and "decrease" more than any other word.
 

lyounamu

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BackCountrySnow said:
But it's entertaining..
.....if I can understand what they are talking about (too many posts to read!!!)
 

SomeoneCool

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Rebekkie said:
when you actually have this conversation (someone's sig)

"unemployments down"
"thats good"
"no apparently thats bad...it means a labour shortage"
"thats bad"
"No thats good...it will push wages up"
"thats good"
"no thats bad...it means higher interest rates"
"thats bad"
"No thats good... it strengthens the dollar"
"Thats good"
"no thats bad...more expensive exports"
"Thats bad"
"no thats good... cheaper imports"
"...Lets stick to the weather"
That's actually from a cartoon that was in the Sydney Morning Herald. My teacher brought it to class and we had to analyse it for like an hour.
 

BackCountrySnow

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SomeoneCool said:
That's actually from a cartoon that was in the Sydney Morning Herald. My teacher brought it to class and we had to analyse it for like an hour.
an hour??
lol?
 

BackCountrySnow

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lyounamu said:
.....if I can understand what they are talking about (too many posts to read!!!)
namu, i dont get your name..
I-you-namu?
or does 'iyou' mean something in korean?
 

lyounamu

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BackCountrySnow said:
namu, i dont get your name..
I-you-namu?
or does 'iyou' mean something in korean?
Namu = my first name
Lyoo = my last Name

I write my last name as "lyou" in my username. There is no specific reason behind it. I just did it.
 

BackCountrySnow

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lyounamu said:
Namu = my first name
Lyoo = my last Name

I write my last name as "lyou" in my username. There is no specific reason behind it. I just did it.
This is I
This is you
This is Namu.
 

lyounamu

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BackCountrySnow said:
This is I
This is you
This is Namu.
Um................................ok............................... :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:
 

gnrlies

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SomeoneCool said:
Just grab yourself a transcript of some of Howard's pre-election campaigns and you will hear the word "interest rates" and "decrease" more than any other word.
That is completely incorrect. If you are going to make such an absurd claim then how about you show me a transcript where he promised to 'decrease' rates.

Sure interest rates was a big theme of the 2004 election, but the terminology used shoots a hole in any theory that suggests howard made any promises to lower, or even keep them at their present rate.
 

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