Your rights at uni rally (2 Viewers)

[withoutaface]

Why? If all universities were run like businesses employers would have to accept them - what would be the alternative? A university that gives its students an education but makes losses? Thats un-ethical in terms of business.

A university would have to both provide an education and be profitable. The degrees in shopfronts idea does not fit the former.

I think that was tried under Pinochet already



F.A.R.C.E

I'd point out that Chile was never truly libertarian, it was fascist. And if we compare it to the rest of Latin America during the same period, it did pretty well.

 

[bshoc]

Delayed burden? What do you think HECS is?

HECS is worrying about your finances as well as education, HECS is paying the government via private funds instead of just tax. HECS is a debt, a government funded uni/eduaction isnt.

Oh, so criticism of the government for a vile practice means that I should move to somewhere where the government does the exact same thing? Good logic you got there.

Well you could always travel around and find a free market paradise where people dont pay taxes - I hear Somalia is great.

Please, please, please do my a favour and read this. Your argument is fallacious because you're attacking irrelevant facts about him, rather than analysing the validity of his argument.

He and people like him got through free while I had to pay becuase they cut the same thread, there is no further argument here.

 

[bshoc]

A university would have to both provide an education and be profitable. The degrees in shopfronts idea does not fit the former.

Competition would dumb down degrees from 3 years into 2, from 2 years into 1, heck its already happned - it would turn Uni into one of those gay asian tutoring places - PASS

I'd point out that Chile was never truly libertarian, it was fascist. And if we compare it to the rest of Latin America during the same period, it did pretty well.

Nah fascists like to reign in the economy, most fascist governments like Italy, Germany and Spain actually did pretty well economy wise, as for relative comparability, see the extract above.

 

[withoutaface]

HECS is worrying about your finances as well as education, HECS is paying the government via private funds instead of just tax. HECS is a debt, a government funded uni/eduaction isnt.

How about a system where people buy shares in your education, and they get 3% dividends from your income for an x year period?

Well you could always travel around and find a free market paradise where people dont pay taxes - I hear Somalia is great.

Compared to the rest of Africa, and how it was 15 years ago, yes it is:
- Less people living on <$1 a day than richer western Africa and neighbouring nations.
- Among the best telecommunications in Africa.
- Smaller gap between rich and poor.

He and people like him got through free while I had to pay becuase they cut the same thread, there is no further argument here.

You didn't read the article. You have no argument.

Competition would dumb down degrees from 3 years into 2, from 2 years into 1, heck its already happned - it would turn Uni into one of those gay asian tutoring places - PASS

If the extra 2 years is useless to future employment prospects then your benefit to society argument goes down the toilet.

Nah fascists like to reign in the economy, most fascist governments like Italy, Germany and Spain actually did pretty well economy wise, as for relative comparability, see the extract above.

And libertarians like to give social freedom too. A combination of much too rapid implementation and lack of social freedom doomed the Chile experiment to failure. And your lack of growth article is BS, because they had one of the fastest growing GDP's in South America.

 

[Mongke]

1. I don't support the invasion of Iraq.
2. Why should they put energy into university when the market can do it for them?
3. You know why rich countries are rich? Because people have incentives to work. Why do people have incentives to work? Low taxes and relatively free markets.

1. i wasnt referring to you when i said to stop invading Iraq, but im glad we agree.
2. huh? my gripe is that JH is so keen to invade countries and get the baddies. id rather he put that energy into social aspects of Australian life. dont you?
3. what has that to do with more attention on unis and less on wars??? higher taxes arent necessary to help out the unis. free uni is not possible but i think they could do a lot better in supporting the unis financially. all my fav faculties are folding id rather the government gave more money to them rather than spending it on wars, such a waist...

 

[withoutaface]

1. i wasnt referring to you when i said to stop invading Iraq, but im glad we agree.
2. huh? my gripe is that JH is so keen to invade countries and get the baddies. id rather he put that energy into social aspects of Australian life. dont you?
3. what has that to do with more attention on unis and less on wars??? higher taxes arent necessary to help out the unis. free uni is not possible but i think they could do a lot better in supporting the unis financially. all my fav faculties are folding id rather the government gave more money to them rather than spending it on wars, such a waist...

Yes, the money would be better off in unis that starting wars, but it'd be even better back in the pockets of taxpayers where it belongs.

 

[Mongke]

Yes, the money would be better off in unis that starting wars, but it'd be even better back in the pockets of taxpayers where it belongs.

what do you mean?

 

[withoutaface]

what do you mean?

That if we remove money from defense, taxes should be cut, not reshuffled.

 

[Wolfowitz]

Yes, the money would be better off in unis that starting wars, but it'd be even better back in the pockets of taxpayers where it belongs.

Didn't your mother tell you to share when you were young? The essence of all of your arguements is selfishness.

Taxpayers are the worst determiners of their own income. They just seem to increase the trade deficit whilst shutting down communal services.

The public have lost the view that university is a proponant for national growth. One that needs nuturing in order to fruit for the future. Just as you need forward infrastructual planning; you need the government to support universities.

 

[withoutaface]

No, I haven't stolen anything. I've payed cumpolsury student union fees the same way you have, and I have used the resources available to me in that time.

You are endorsing a system where people are having their property removed from them against their will. This is theft.

I don't appreciate being called a thief,

You support a system of theft. This makes you an accomplice at the very least

but I don't expect an idiotic extremist like you to apologise so I'll get over it right about now.

So because I'm consistent, this makes me extremist?

Tax is not theft.

It is the removal of someone's property against their will. This is theft.

It is a legal part of the economic marketplace that you have been defending in other posts you have made.

A lassez-faire marketplace would not have theft except in the case where it prevents more theft (i.e. funding a legal system).

Making statements such as these really do make you look like an imbocile.

And your inability to spell imbecilie doesn't do a lot for your cause, either.

Yeah, cause it's not like we have other necessary expenses that are a marginally lower priority than defence. Great fucking idea, Einstein.

Most other expenses don't need taxes to fund them.

 

[withoutaface]

Didn't your mother tell you to share when you were young?

Telling, and forcing, are two completely different things.

The essence of all of your arguements is selfishness.

The essence of all of yours is theft.

Taxpayers are the worst determiners of their own income.

So you'd say the government should decide whether I have corn flakes or froot loops for breakfast?

They just seem to increase the trade deficit whilst shutting down communal services.

So if the entire world was composed of free trading, lassez faire economies, every country would have a trade deficit?

The public have lost the view that university is a proponant for national growth. One that needs nuturing in order to fruit for the future. Just as you need forward infrastructual planning; you need the government to support universities.

Shareholders can fund universities just as easily as the government can, and without stealing money to do so.

 

[Silver And Cold]

And your inability to spell imbecilie doesn't do a lot for your cause, either.

yours either, dickhead.

no third i

Paying compulsory student union fees is part & parcel of coming to university. People go to university out of their own will, and therefore pay ANY fees in which they are required to pay for in order to attend university, and those fees currently cover compulsory student union fees. This is NOT theft. This is a student paying another set of fees which they are required to pay, in order to attend a university which they willfully enrolled into.

Gotta agree with that :uhhuh:

I also agree with many other things in this thread and disagree with many other things but i'm too lazy to respond right now so I will do it tomorrow

 

[withoutaface]

yours either, dickhead.

no third i


Gotta agree with that :uhhuh:

I also agree with many other things in this thread and disagree with many other things but i'm too lazy to respond right now so I will do it tomorrow

That was a typo, as opposed to a genuine spelling error.

You're an idiot.

Thanks, but as I've said, ad homs don't help.

Paying compulsory student union fees is part & parcel of coming to university. People go to university out of their own will, and therefore pay ANY fees in which they are required to pay for in order to attend university, and those fees currently cover compulsory student union fees.

What other option do they have? How many legitimate options do I have if I want an engineering degree? If the government didn't have a monopoly on universities your argument might hold some water, but as it stands there is no legitimate competition.

 

[withoutaface]

just because there's a monopoly does not make it theft

You have two choices: have the ability to have a degree stolen, or have union fees stolen. A monopoly forces the former.

im not gonna waste any more of my time arguing something going in circles.

When you throw the exact same criticism under a different guise at me that's what you get, a circular argument.

good luck going through life thinking you're always correct

Good luck going through your life showing no respect for the rights of other human beings.

 

[withoutaface]

and why the fuck were you at a protest fighting for vsu if you're sitting here calling compulsory union fees theft right now

I would have thought the fact that I think CSU is theft would make me more likely to be at a protest fighting for VSU.

 

[withoutaface]

the laws implementing VSU as of July 1, 2006 were already passed, last december.

And...? You've completely ignored my post.

But in response to that, it was a chance to stir up some commies and get media attention.

 

[Mongke]

the government should be spending more money on its people. instead of lowering tax, use it to aid the batler. places in Europe have a social system and they have really high taxes, but there are less homeless and less unemployed and consequently less crime. it makes me want to learn German i am prepared to pay high taxes if the government gives it back in my Uni, in the schools ill send my children to, in pensions when i grow old... if they can take care of me and give me a stong union backed by a strong government based on helping the people, not ripping them off then ill pay the taxes.

when you live oversease, the one thing you know about Australia is that its socialist, but thats changeing, even in my experience of 5 years. this is a really great country to live in and im never surprised when celebs say they love it in Australia. its a real pitty JH has made the focus of a nation be on the ecconomy, defence, and "freedom" of choice. without a strong union we cant survivie given the new IR laws, im no lawer, i want to know that i have ammo to shoot back when bottom line companies flex their muscles. i think only JH and his admin pretend the new laws are good for the country.

[END RANT]

 

[Omnidragon]

As far as taxes go, these are my thoughts.

Let's just say taxes is a way of buying security. If we don't look after the masses at least to some extent, people start getting unhealthy thoughts. While I loathe their attitude (e.g. asking for youth allowance to blow it at some pub; devising master schemes to stay out of work for as long as possible and getting their parents' to fund their Honours-->phd-->another degree-->repeat cycle), I'll let it pass seeing this country is in a good state and most people seem happy, at least on a relative basis when compared to other countries.

In that sense, one could say I espouse the views of a welfare liberalist. While lassez-faire liberalism would be ideal, I highly doubt it's achievable. So let's just keep these aspirations inside our hearts.

I guess it's a bit of a balancing act. I'd be reluctant to take an extreme view by vehemently saying yes or no to social welfare. I think the masses can do that very well already.

Touching on this issue, I don't think student union fees is at the point where they need to be compulsory. Without getting into the finer details of what I think of the student unions, I'll just say I don't believe university education is so essential that it should be a fundamental right to be safeguarded. It'd be nice to get 50% the population into universities. But there are plenty of jobs out there that don't require university qualifications. Wasn't Howard talking about skill shortages just a while back?

 

[withoutaface]

Re: double

wait let me get things straight....withoutaface...you were at the protests but protesting for the VSU where everyone else was protesting against it.....im so very confused

btw when was it up to you if a spelling mistake was done on purpose or as a typo :\

Because if you try to hit 'e' and accidently hit 'o', you should probably be losing severe amounts of weight.

 

[Silver And Cold]

Europe is dying, demographically. Europe cannot sustain it's social welfare system, and when it collapses all your European 'battlers' will be poor, unemployed, and hungry. P.S: Germany has large amounts of unemployed people, what are you? a twit? (sorry if you meant Austria, I would have to look up its economic figures).

maybe he meant Switzerland in which case, he'd be lucky, and well looked after.

The other thing is, do we really want people with a UAI of 55 or 50 in University?

As you rightly pointed out, there are big skill shortages in some trade areas, but everyone is being pressured into going to university.

How many gender studies majors does this country really need?

Our university patterns of entry are still skipping science, nursing, and teaching. The result of this is that we have a big shortage of nurses, very poor teachers, and not enough scientists in this country to push us forward.

A better quality education involves getting *less* people into uni, not more.

I've got to agree there, there are enough dickheads at uni as it is. Seriously? I cannot understand how some of them got in.

When it came to VSU, I was completely against in the beginning, and I'm still pretty much against because the idea of unions, to me, is a really important part of uni. But I mean, after reading everyone's arguments, i think that if so many people are against VSU, then they can continue to pay the union fees and I don't believe the unions can do too bad out of it.