Contradiction (3 Viewers)

[anonymous.92]

How does it not work in this context? Muslim women develop an attachment to their oppressor/captor (husbands).

Seriously? How typical, assuming all muslim women are subjugated by their husbands. Yeah right.

 

[anonymous.92]

It is the freedoms of Western society that bring the relative peace and stability. And I think your argument in itself provides a point for why Western society is better; you are saying that Western society is preferable for the peace and stability, not the freedoms, but you're saying this whilst enjoying some of the greatest freedoms mankind has ever experienced. Take that away from you and you'll truly realise how important they are.

Oh, don't worry. I'm quite grateful to Western society for all the opportunities it has afforded me. I'm actually quite happy living here.

But. I've travelled overseas before, and I've witnessed firsthand how happy many Muslim women and men are there, despite any political turmoil. That is why I took umbrage to your initial statement that Muslim men and women are basically oppressed.

You can't just say that a Western society is better than another because that is a matter of opinion. It isn't up to you to judge a person's relative happiness or whatnot. That's because things like this differ from individual to individual. If I had a choice, I wouldn't move out of Australia, but I can't say the same for everyone else I know. Similarly, despite whatever might be going on overseas, a person might be living an extremely happy life. That just goes back to my original arguement. Happiness isn't determined by one factor, but many.

Do you understand me now? Not all Muslims living in Arab countries are sitting around dwelling on how miserable they are, and how they'd be much more happier had they the freedom to go to bars and concerts. Many of them do have a life to live, you know.

 

[JonathanM]

Oh, don't worry. I'm quite grateful to Western society for all the opportunities it has afforded me. I'm actually quite happy living here.

But. I've travelled overseas before, and I've witnessed firsthand how happy many Muslim women and men are there, despite any political turmoil. That is why I took umbrage to your initial statement that Muslim men and women are basically oppressed.

You can't just say that a Western society is better than another because that is a matter of opinion. It isn't up to you to judge a person's relative happiness or whatnot. That's because things like this differ from individual to individual. If I had a choice, I wouldn't move out of Australia, but I can't say the same for everyone else I know. Similarly, despite whatever might be going on overseas, a person might be living an extremely happy life. That just goes back to my original arguement. Happiness isn't determined by one factor, but many.

Do you understand me now? Not all Muslims living in Arab countries are sitting around dwelling on how miserable they are, and how they'd be much more happier had they the freedom to go to bars and concerts. Many of them do have a life to live, you know.

I'm sorry, I understand what you're saying but you are so wrong. You're just being an apologist, like a kid trying to explain a ding on his dads new car, 'now you're right, it is dented and broken, but if you look at it from this angle, it's not that bad'.

It's the morals behind it all; the fact that these individuals, happy or not, could be enjoying their lives so much more if their government and religion allowed them to. I also really fail to understand how women as oppresses as those in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Egypt, Saudi Arabia etc. can lead any semblance of a happy life without being brainwashed.

Humans can find happiness anywhere, as an extreme example. I once read a story about how Jews managed to find happiness in the concentration camps through songs etc. It doesn't mean it is true happiness though.

 

[loler]

I'm sorry, I understand what you're saying but you are so wrong. You're just being an apologist, like a kid trying to explain a ding on his dads new car, 'now you're right, it is dented and broken, but if you look at it from this angle, it's not that bad'.

It's the morals behind it all; the fact that these individuals, happy or not, could be enjoying their lives so much more if their government and religion allowed them to. I also really fail to understand how women as oppresses as those in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Egypt, Saudi Arabia etc. can lead any semblance of a happy life without being brainwashed.

Humans can find happiness anywhere, as an extreme example. I once read a story about how Jews managed to find happiness in the concentration camps through songs etc. It doesn't mean it is true happiness though.

Who the fuck are you to judge a persons degree of happiness, what the fuck would you know about any individual person

 

[spartan31234]

happiness is just a state of mind. A strong mind can find "happiness" anywhere, however this is impracticable for 99.999% of humans. This is can mainly be achieved through accepting the situation ect.

Note my definition of happiness is fairly lose, i am not referring to drunken or delusional euphoria.

 

[JonathanM]

Who the fuck are you to judge a persons degree of happiness, what the fuck would you know about any individual person

I'm using a pretty simple process of basic logic to work out that a woman in an Arab/Muslim country who must be clothed from head to foot with even a veil over their eyes, is not allowed to be employed in any job and is legally regarded as being the property of her husband would have a significantly less amount of happiness than the average woman in the Western world. Pretty simple, actually.

 

[loler]

I'm using a pretty simple process of basic logic to work out that a woman in an Arab/Muslim country who must be clothed from head to foot with even a veil over their eyes, is not allowed to be employed in any job and is legally regarded as being the property of her husband would have a significantly less amount of happiness than the average woman in the Western world. Pretty simple, actually.

I have been on holiday to muslim countries where they are not all "clothed from head to foot with a veil over their eyes" (especially Turkey- hardly any are veiled, yet its a muslim country), and many are employed.

 

[JonathanM]

I have been on holiday to muslim countries where they are not all "clothed from head to foot with a veil over their eyes" (especially Turkey- hardly any are veiled, yet its a muslim country), and many are employed.

Thank you for proving my point, Turkey is a Western country. And it is almost on its own as a Western Muslim country (Indonesia is also one, but that has big problems) and is sadly becoming more extreme due to a growing radical Islamic cultural element and a batshit insane leadership.

 

[4theHSC]

Thank you for proving my point, Turkey is a Western country. And it is almost on its own as a Western Muslim country (Indonesia is also one, but that has big problems) and is sadly becoming more extreme due to a growing radical Islamic cultural element and a batshit insane leadership.

Hey Jonathan were you raped by a muslim? Thank god people like you are a minority.

 

[postnatal]

ahuh

 

[trickx]

[youtube]J7aS7m3odqI[/youtube]

 

[anonymous.92]

I'm sorry, I understand what you're saying but you are so wrong. You're just being an apologist, like a kid trying to explain a ding on his dads new car, 'now you're right, it is dented and broken, but if you look at it from this angle, it's not that bad'.

It's the morals behind it all; the fact that these individuals, happy or not, could be enjoying their lives so much more if their government and religion allowed them to. I also really fail to understand how women as oppresses as those in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Egypt, Saudi Arabia etc. can lead any semblance of a happy life without being brainwashed.

Humans can find happiness anywhere, as an extreme example. I once read a story about how Jews managed to find happiness in the concentration camps through songs etc. It doesn't mean it is true happiness though.

I'm an apologist? No, what you're doing is condemning people to a life of misery that they might not even be living.

You're saying that these individuals would be happier if their governement and religion allowed them to. Well, um, in case you hadn't noticed, religion is a choice in the sense that if you don't agree with it, don't follow it. People who are Muslim believe what they are following, and hence don't mind abstaining from something their religion tells them to abstain from. One verse in the Quran says, "There is no compulsion in religion..."

As for governement, I believe I've made my stance on that clear.

But you're also saying that women are oppressed. Oppressed by whom? Their husbands? Well, um, domestic violence and such is actually quite rampant in Western countries such as this one. So, by making the assumption that a woman who's Muslim, living in an Islamic country is oppressed, doesn't really hold.

And then there is your last comment. Jews in concentration camps? Don't you think comparing Muslims living in Islamic countries such as Malaysia, who are banned from attending bars and concerts to the agony and torture Jews experienced in concentration camps is a tad... inaccurate? (and I'm majorly understating here.)

 

[anonymous.92]

I'm using a pretty simple process of basic logic to work out that a woman in an Arab/Muslim country who must be clothed from head to foot with even a veil over their eyes, is not allowed to be employed in any job and is legally regarded as being the property of her husband would have a significantly less amount of happiness than the average woman in the Western world. Pretty simple, actually.

Saudi Arabia doesn't enforce the face garment. Just a head covering. Women who cover their faces, do it because they choose to.

And women are allowed to be employed. What are you talking about?

Property? Now that, is just an exaggeration.

 

[JonathanM]

I'm an apologist? No, what you're doing is condemning people to a life of misery that they might not even be living.

You're saying that these individuals would be happier if their governement and religion allowed them to. Well, um, in case you hadn't noticed, religion is a choice in the sense that if you don't agree with it, don't follow it. People who are Muslim believe what they are following, and hence don't mind abstaining from something their religion tells them to abstain from. One verse in the Quran says, "There is no compulsion in religion..."

For fucks sake, that's the thing, their religion is not a choice. They are born into Islam and don't have a chance to leave. If they convert out they will be ostracized. Not that they should have to convert out, they should be allowed to follow it whichever way they please, although that isn't a choice in these countries where they are forced to wear a head covering and are restricted from certain professions.

But you're also saying that women are oppressed. Oppressed by whom? Their husbands? Well, um, domestic violence and such is actually quite rampant in Western countries such as this one. So, by making the assumption that a woman who's Muslim, living in an Islamic country is oppressed, doesn't really hold.

That's a laugh, domestic violence is 'rampant' here? Only reason we know that is because it's an offence. In Arab/Muslim countries either it's not an offence because your husband has the right to do whatever he wants with you or because the case will always be thrown out of court. I can assure you 100% that there is more domestic violence in Arab/Muslim countries, I don't even need statistics, it's common sense.

And then there is your last comment. Jews in concentration camps? Don't you think comparing Muslims living in Islamic countries such as Malaysia, who are banned from attending bars and concerts to the agony and torture Jews experienced in concentration camps is a tad... inaccurate? (and I'm majorly understating here.)

It's an extreme example, but you're arguing the same thing in principle.

Saudi Arabia doesn't enforce the face garment. Just a head covering. Women who cover their faces, do it because they choose to.

Pretty irrelevent, the fact remains that women are forced to be covered up no matter what their own preference is. Can't see how that is a good thing, unless you're going to go down the Sheik Hilali path and argue that it protects against rape?

And women are allowed to be employed. What are you talking about?

Rarely if ever happens. Recently the fact that women could become taxi drivers in Iran (although they could only serve female customers) became news. And I don't see many, if any female members in their parliaments etc?

Property? Now that, is just an exaggeration.

No, fact.

8-year-old girl's marriage ruled legal - UPI.com

 

[Bereie]

Lol how can you say that all Muslim women choose to wear a headscarf/veil/burka/hijab/whatever? The ones that do are most likely either:

Forced to under threat (whether made explicit or not) of beatings, (which are allowed in the quran).
Scared of ostracization from their families and communities
Are scared of ending up dead in an "honor killing" (which happen all the time in the Middle East and sometimes in Western countries in Muslim communities)
Are actually brainwashed into thinking they are being liberated by walking around like a bee keeper as their husband's property (like someone said before, stockholm syndrome).

 

[trickx]

Lol how can you say that all Muslim women choose to wear a headscarf/veil/burka/hijab/whatever? The ones that do are most likely either:

Forced to under threat (whether made explicit or not) of beatings, (which are allowed in the quran).
Ostracization from their families and communities
Are scared of ending up dead in an "honor killing" (which happen all the time in the Middle East and sometimes in Western countries in Muslim communities)
Are actually brainwashed into thinking they are being liberated by walking around like a bee keeper as their husband's property (like someone said before, stockholm syndrome).

[youtube]YPIWeRdB5Nc[/youtube]

Notice how she says the Quran gives women "alot of rights" rather than "equal rights".

And yes, i fucking love this man.

 

[anonymous.92]

For fucks sake, that's the thing, their religion is not a choice.

Oh, really? So, according to you, people are forced to believe something they don't want to believe? I don't think that's possible.

They are born into Islam and don't have a chance to leave.

There have been cases of people leaving Islam. Some notable ones too.

If they convert out they will be ostracized. Not that they should have to convert out, they should be allowed to follow it whichever way they please, although that isn't a choice in these countries where they are forced to wear a head covering and are restricted from certain professions.

You know, many Muslim countries, the majority actually, don't enforce the head covering. You can't keep using Saudi Arabia as an example for everything, you know. There are other Muslim countries out there.

That's a laugh, domestic violence is 'rampant' here? Only reason we know that is because it's an offence. In Arab/Muslim countries either it's not an offence because your husband has the right to do whatever he wants with you or because the case will always be thrown out of court. I can assure you 100% that there is more domestic violence in Arab/Muslim countries, I don't even need statistics, it's common sense.

You're questioning whether domestic violence is rampant in Australia? You're kidding, right? Do you read the newspapers? Domestic violence cases are heard all the time. And those are just the ones being reported to the police.

Also, for the millionth time, what are you talking about? The husband has the right to do whatever he wants to his wife? Wrong. That isn't right Islamically, nor according to any political system I've heard of. Give me one example of any country, where a husband has the right to do anything he wants with his wife.

It's an extreme example, but you're arguing the same thing in principle.

Nah, I don't think I am. What I was and am arguing, is no where near as extreme as comparing the plight of Muslims living in Islamic countries to the suffering of the Jews.

Pretty irrelevent, the fact remains that women are forced to be covered up no matter what their own preference is. Can't see how that is a good thing, unless you're going to go down the Sheik Hilali path and argue that it protects against rape?

The point is, in Saudi Arabia it is the law. It doesn't matter what you think. It matters what they think. And I honestly believe that the majority of them don't have a problem with it. If they did, why would many women living in Saudi Arabia take the initiative to cover themselves even further, by only allowing their eyes to be visible?

Rarely if ever happens. Recently the fact that women could become taxi drivers in Iran (although they could only serve female customers) became news. And I don't see many, if any female members in their parliaments etc?

You used the example of Iran. So I will too. A lot of women are employed in Iran, yeah maybe not as taxi drivers, but a lot of them are doctors and teachers.

You know, there is one major problem with your arguements. You clump all Islamic countries under one heading and insist they oppress their people, but you fail to realise that each country has separate laws for its people. One thing that may be occurring in one Islamic country may not necessarily be happening in another. Through this fashion, you create the impression that the entirety of Islamic countries imitate the likes of Saudi Arabia and Iran. In a lot of cases, the only similarity between two Muslim countries is the fact that they both are Muslim.

No, fact.

8-year-old girl's marriage ruled legal - UPI.com

I read that article. Does it say that women are the property of their husbands? No, it does not say that. You're once again creating a false impression.

But I have to admit, Saudi Arabia really has done something abominable. In Islam, the marriage of pre-pubescent girls is forbidden, and I fail to see why they ruled that marriage legal. But the fact that it was news, just proves exactly that. That it's news. It wouldn't be, if this sort of thing were happening daily. Still sad, though.

 

[Anonymous-]

anonymous.92, you are fucking being trolled.

 

[anonymous.92]

Lol how can you say that all Muslim women choose to wear a headscarf/veil/burka/hijab/whatever? The ones that do are most likely either:

Forced to under threat (whether made explicit or not) of beatings, (which are allowed in the quran).
Ostracization from their families and communities
Are scared of ending up dead in an "honor killing" (which happen all the time in the Middle East and sometimes in Western countries in Muslim communities)
Are actually brainwashed into thinking they are being liberated by walking around like a bee keeper as their husband's property (like someone said before, stockholm syndrome).

By your logic, how can you say that all Muslim women who cover themselves are forced, scared of being ostracized/killed or brainwashed?

 

[anonymous.92]

anonymous.92, you are fucking being trolled.

Haha. ok