Does God Exist? (3 Viewers)

[alphatango]

have u ever considered how screwed ud be if god actually existed......?? its actually a huge thing not to believe in god....arent u scared that god might actually exist....shouldnt u do a bit more reaserch b4 u make up ur mind?? but of course its up to u...if ur happy with life the way it is for u, then great...as long as u live without any doubts then all is good.

its all about what makes a person comfortable...if ur an atheist and have no doubt that god dosent exist, then great. if ur a believer who has no doubt god exists then thats great too....as long as ur living without doubt. if theres a tiny bit of doubt then u should work on it until u are doubt free.......

As a scientist, I don't believe in "doubt free". Take the theory of general relativity. We accept it as correct, and it's been tested and found to predict results correctly many, many times over. Nevertheless, there is a possibility that we're all just barking up the wrong tree and the true laws of physics are based on completely different principles. =P (Mathematics, incidentally, is slightly different...the only things we assume are logic and whatever axioms we want to base our system on, so...)

So as far as I'm concerned, there will always be the possibility that I'm completely wrong and that God exists. I just can't find it in myself to believe because of the way I view the world and the way I work.

And yes, I'm probably "screwed" if God does exist. Too bad -- I guess I'll just have to live with that possibility. Nevertheless, I'm told by the Christians that God gave us free will...and if he did, it's mine to exercise to the best of my ability. And if he didn't, and free will just happens to be ours, then it's mine to use anyway.

Of course, there's always the possibility that we don't *actually* have free will...

 

[joujou_84]

wtf how is 'not all queries are answered by science' a reason to believe in god?

You've been brainwashed, you should always have doubts, always question.. not just look for ways to dismiss your doubts.

thats not my reason for believing in god.......dont twist words
yes u should have doubts but u shouldnt dismiss them, i didnt say that......u should search for answers until u no longer have doubts......how can u say u truly believe in something if u have doubts....thats plain stupid..

telling me ive been brainwashed isnt very nice since ur suggesting i have no brain to decipher wats true from wats not.

 

[malkin86]

The main arguments for Gods existance seem to be..

#1 Look at the beauty of the earth, universe. How can you witness these things and not believe?

*many other religions make exactly the same claim. Why is your one special? Surely the beauty is therefore equally valid proof of the existence of hundreds of other gods? One supernatural explanation is just as valid as any other.

* Unfortunately, everything you describe can also be explained in mundane, rational, scientific terms, without the need to invoke a Creator.

* What about the nasty things in life? Guinea worms, anthrax, mosquitoes; all the blood-sucking, parasitical, disease-bearing, poisonous beasties that kill us and each other in horrific ways?

#2 Six hundred million people follow my religion. They can't all be wrong - there must be something in it.

* Nine hundred million people follow religion Z. Are they all wrong? Truth is not democratic - you can't vote for objective reality.

* Maybe they are right. Maybe their god exists as well as your god?

* If they're wrong, couldn't you also be wrong? After all, they seem to believe at least as strongly and sincerely as you do, and for many of the same reasons...

#3 "I have personally witnessed a miracle. I can trust my senses."

* Lots of people have personally witnessed Elvis working at the Drive-Thru. Should I believe them also? Without any sort of evidence, personal subjective testimony is not very convincing.

* Many people from other religions claim to have witnessed miracles. Does this mean that their God also exists? Just how many Gods are there?

* Are you positive that Divine Intervention is the only possible explanation for what you saw?

#4 "My God is a living God. All those other ones are just ancient myths."
* Those gods were "living Gods" to the people who believed in them. Zeuss, Odin and Jupiter once had followers every bit as devout as you.

* Many of the "ancient" religions still have active, devout, sincere followers. Just like you. Why should I accept your claims over theirs identical ones?

* How many people claim to worship dead gods?

#5 "We are God's Chosen People."

* So why doesn't he look after you a bit better? How many of his followers have suffered or died recently? Statistically, are you any better off than followers of other religions?

* Again, the same claim is made by other religions. How do I know they aren't the Chosen Ones?

* So what are the rest of us here for? What about the ones living in remote villages who will live their entire lives without even hearing of your god?

So if those are the main arguments, in your opinion, for God's existance, what are the main arguments, in your opinion, against God's existance?

 

[Jiga]

have u ever considered how screwed ud be if god actually existed......?? its actually a huge thing not to believe in god....arent u scared that god might actually exist

Im not going to be 'screwed' because I know there is no god, simple as that, I pity people who believe there is, such wasted lives. Aernt YOU worried that your wasting valuable time in your life over something that doesnt exist? Or aernt YOU worried that your life wont be as good as you are basically told what you can and cant do by a religion?

At the end of the day, Im not worried about 'god' because I know, once you die its light out, goodbye, as it is for any other organism in this world, we are not special, after all we came from apes.

 

[malkin86]

Joujou, is this "screwed"ness you speak of Pascal's wager? I asked about that a while ago, but no one was interested.

Pascal's wager is essentially: "If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing -- but if you don't believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you will go to hell. Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist." - paraphrased by Dr. Massimo Pigliucci, http://www.rationallyspeaking.org/

Atheists, is this bunk? If so, why?

 

[Jiga]

"If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing "

Well you have lost alot if your wrong and you believe their is. The most obvious - a life. Instead of living how you want to, believers would have lived a life dicateted by what someone else thinks is right and wrong.

 

[firehose]

At the end of the day, Im not worried about 'god' because I know, once you die its light out, goodbye, as it is for any other organism in this world, we are not special, after all we came from apes.

Hmm, that's funny, actually that's just really weird. If humans were just the same as all the other species on earth there wouldn't be any computer for you to be typing ludicrous statements like that. Instead, you'd be a primitive hunting around for food. Think about it. And try disproving that God exists too. You won't succeed.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

here u go mate

The most obvious problems with Pascal's Wager are:

* How do you know which God to believe in? There are plenty to choose from, and if you pick the wrong one, you could be in big trouble (e.g. what if you choose Jesus, but get to heaven only to come face-to-trunk with Ganesh?). This is known as the "Avoiding the wrong Hell problem". If a dozen people of different religions came to you with Pascal's Wager, how could you possibly choose between them? After all, many religions are quite specific that they are the One True Religion, and not any others. Jesus Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the light. None shall come to the Father except through me." [emphasis added] and no doubt most other religions make similar claims. If a Christian considers the Wager as strong support for his faith, surely he must accept that it is equally valid for all other religions when presented to himself?
* God is not stupid. Won't He know that you're just trying to get a free ride into Heaven? How can you sincerely believe in a God simply out of convenience?
* If there is no God, you have still lost something. You have wasted a good portion of your life performing the various devotional rituals, attending Churches, praying, reading scripture and discussing your deity with His other followers. Not to mention giving your hard-earned money to the church, wasting your intelligence on theological endeavours and boring the hell out of people who really don't want to hear your Good News.
* Can you get away with just sort of generally believing in a Supreme Being, without specifically believing in one particular Deity? Probably not - God will still know what you're up to. Also, many Gods are quite particular about how they should be worshipped. Many born-again Christians will tell you that the only way to Heaven is through accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour - nothing more and nothing less. General-Deity-Belief and being nice simply won't do. Many people believe that all the different religions are merely alternative routes to the same destination. Nice and tolerant (if a little warm'n'fuzzy) though this may be, there is no valid reason to accept this stance over the fire-and-brimstone fundamentalist position : if the fundies are right, then the un-Saved liberal theists are in just as much trouble as the nonbelievers.

* Few, if any, atheists disbelieve in deities out of choice. It's not as if we know the god is really there, but somehow refuse to believe in it (for example, see if you can choose to truly believe that Australia does not exist). Most atheists disbelieve simply because they know of no compelling evidence to suggest that any sort of god exists. If you want an atheist to believe, show her some good evidence, don't just say it's in her best interests to believe even if there is no god. A person cannot choose to sincerely believe in something, just because it is pragmatic to do so. Sure, you could say all the right prayers and attend church regularly, but that is not the same thing as actually believing, and any God worth his salt would obviously see straight through that.

* It is quite insulting. It amounts to a thinly veiled threat, little better than saying "Believe in my God or He'll send you to Hell" (in fact, this is often the form it is presented in). Also, the theist making this threat assumes that the atheist believes there is a Hell or a God to send her there in the first place. If you don't believe in Hell anyway, it's not a scary thing to be threatened with - a bit like saying "If you don't start believing in unicorns, one will trample you to death while you're sleeping." Who would be worried by that?

* It is often self-refuting, depending on the person's description of God. If you believe that God will forgive anyone for anything, or judge people purely on how they lived their life and not what they believed, or that everyone gets to Heaven regardless (unless maybe they were genocidal cannibal serial killers), then the Wager is meaningless. You might as well say "Believe in God, or you'll... erm... go to Heaven anyway." In such a case, it doesn't make a scrap of difference whether the person believes or not.

by the way, the reason why it's bad to believe in god if it doesn't exist include

Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind. It's not just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings; think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on. Imagine how that effort could be better spent.

Many theists believe in miracle healing. There have been plenty of instances of ill people being "healed" by a priest, ceasing to take the medicines prescribed to them by doctors, and dying as a result. Some theists have died because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds.

It is arguable that the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control -- and condoms in particular -- is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many third-world countries and contributing to the spread of AIDS world-wide.

Religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different religion. Religious leaders have been known to justify murder on the grounds of blasphemy.

There have been many religious wars. Even if we accept the argument that religion was not the true cause of those wars, it was still used as an effective justification for them.

at least read the first 2-3 pages of this thread guys! lol

 

[firehose]

"If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing "

Well you have lost alot if your wrong and you believe their is. The most obvious - a life. Instead of living how you want to, believers would have lived a life dicateted by what someone else thinks is right and wrong.

Maybe that's a better thing. Being controlled by a God who knows right from wrong than living your own life without any direction. Religious people certainly DO have a life, btw

 

[Josie]

Honest question: BEFORE YOU DIE, IN THIS LIFETIME.

How has religion made your life better? Is it making it better? Or is it merely the promise of the afterlife? I'm asking about this lifetime, the one you're living right this moment. How is belief in a Supreme Being making your life better RIGHT NOW?

K, Cool, I used to be a Christian of sorts. My daily life HAS NOT CHANGED one instant since I ceased to stop believing that stuff (by the time I turned 11...)... so how is religion making your life better?

I'm not trying to insult anyone here either. Just an honest question.

 

[Dreamerish*~]

hmmm i agree with that.
the good thing about believing in god is that it gives people faith and encourages them to do the right things.
a lot of today's laws are developed from eccelestial laws, i think religion would encourage people to be more law-abiding.

 

[Josie]

I'm sure you've heard it before... 65% of rapists surveyed had viewed pornography and 95% had read the bible....

Not that that's in any way true, but do you have statistics on theists vs atheists and crime rates? (That's the point I meant to make.)

Question still stands btw.

 

[Dreamerish*~]

well, i guess just because they have read the bible doesn't mean that they are believers.
i know some bad asses who do drugs and go to church every sunday

 

[Josie]

Oh definately. But how do you know believers are more likely to be good people?
Isn't believer a personal definition?
Aren't many of the people who do terrible things self professed believers?
I won't offend people by making a middle eastern reference, so enter the politics for a moment... President George Bush has "God" on his side, he's definately a believer... but he makes health care harder to access, he limits education, and he bombs other countries and often innocent people.... excuse me anyone who likes him and his policies, I'm merely using an example.

 

[Dreamerish*~]

very true
well i really don't know. my first post was something like saying i'm not getting involved.
i'm an athiest and i'm good
i think i'll just say: really uber-religious people scare me...

 

[Josie]

Fanatics? Yeah, they scare most people.

Anyone else to respond to the question?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

but people will do good and bad things with or without a god...
I'm sure that even without his belief in god GWB would still act the same.

 

[Josie]

Yeah, my point was merely that being a believer doesn't make you a good person, just as being a non-believer doesn't make you a good person.

 

[Jiga]

Hmm, that's funny, actually that's just really weird. If humans were just the same as all the other species on earth there wouldn't be any computer for you to be typing ludicrous statements like that. Instead, you'd be a primitive hunting around for food. Think about it. And try disproving that God exists too. You won't succeed.

How does the fact I have a computer infront of me disprove the fact we came from apes? What seems ludicrous to me is that someone is unaware of EVOLUTION, maybe you should research this and the answer to your 'ludicrous statement' will be found. Maybe even hop over to the non-school threads, I recall one thread about how some birds began dropping nuts etc onto the road so cars would run over them and crack them open, that is much the same as our evolution from the ape, except on different scales. There are numerous explanations for how we have come to be today which dont involve peasants views from 1000 years ago but instead evidence.

About trying to prove god doesnt exist, I will succeed, here, where is he? Case Closed.

The funny thing out of this, if a man was to say he could see a lepracorn or some shit, we'd pass him off as insane, yet all these religious ppl believe in something we cant see but someone ages and ages ago somehow did - but thats ok

 

[acmilan]

How does the fact I have a computer infront of me disprove the fact we came from apes? What seems ludicrous to me is that someone is unaware of EVOLUTION, maybe you should research this and the answer to your 'ludicrous statement' will be found. Maybe even hop over to the non-school threads, I recall one thread about how some birds began dropping nuts etc onto the road so cars would run over them and crack them open, that is much the same as our evolution from the ape, except on different scales. There are numerous explanations for how we have come to be today which dont involve peasants views from 1000 years ago but instead evidence.

About trying to prove god doesnt exist, I will succeed, here, where is he? Case Closed.

The funny thing out of this, if a man was to say he could see a lepracorn or some shit, we'd pass him off as insane, yet all these religious ppl believe in something we cant see but someone ages and ages ago somehow did - but thats ok

Well if one was to be technical they would stipulate that evolution does not state humans descended from apes