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soha

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HotShot said:
just remember this is a forum, so i will be harsh and will not care what others say, but that good cos you can ask some good shit.

no have not the hadith, but a lot of friends have so they tell me. the major disappointment is, the fact that people stick by it 100% and i dont believe thats rite. for example is alcohol is not allowed, shouldnt smoking not be allowed as well.

naturally it should be, causes cancer , its unclean and so on. but just becuase it doesnt say it is not allowed in the hadith or quran, people go for it. what do you think of that? thats stupid isnt it.

the hadith it seems were made for people with no common sense. if there no water, you use sand. but sir what is there is no sand? or sir what do i do if i have soiled in the mosque? go clean it up nuthead!
smoking is not allowed
the actuallt action of lighting up a cigarette and smoking it is not forbidden anywhere
however we have been told not to cause harm to our bodies
not to kill ourselves
(on the front of a packet it says smoking kills)
we have been told not to waste money
put the pieces of the puzzle together and smoking is practically haram..
what comes of it is not pleasing Allah swt

hadith is just the words and explanations of the prophet
and people who observed the prophet his companians..following his actions
hadith explains things in the koran that make no sense to someone who has no knowledge in tafsir..has no knowledge in the traditional koranic arabic language
if u read something in the koran there will probably be some sort of hadith to answer it

it helps us with every day life..how to act..how to do stuff..
hadith is not for just people with no common sense...
its for every muslim!!
 

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well frankly I think that people shouldn't smoke, regardless of their religion! I mean the fact smoking is bad for you doesn't need to be written in a sacred text for you to realise that it is bad for your health. Islam forbids a lot of things based on the fact that they are bad for you physically and, as a consequence bad for you spiritually...I'm not muslim but I don't drink or smoke because I agree with a lot of the same principles...I believe that a lot of it is common sense not the opposite...:)
 

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Jacks said:
well frankly I think that people shouldn't smoke, regardless of their religion! I mean the fact smoking is bad for you doesn't need to be written in a sacred text for you to realise that it is bad for your health. Islam forbids a lot of things based on the fact that they are bad for you physically and, as a consequence bad for you spiritually...I'm not muslim but I don't drink or smoke because I agree with a lot of the same principles...I believe that a lot of it is common sense not the opposite...:)
well good on u for not smoking and wat not! :)

look islam doesnt say: dont do this coz its bad for u. it goes beyond that

smoking wasnt around in those days, so the scholars come in and say:

" look the same situation applies in both these cases- so both should have the same treatment"

wat the quran does forbid is (in one verse): Gambling, alcohol, fortune telling, and idol worship. there are others, but these were prevalent in the society at the time, and from the moment of this verse being revealed, alcohlic drinks were never drunk again.

some might say that wine or some other alcohol is good for you. the quran doesnt deny that! it says that there is good in it for you, but the evil is greater than the good, and therefore keep away from it. - this is the legal reasoning behind its prohibition.


oh and jacks, the quran made it explicit that these things were bad for us as in thsoe days, no one knew that alcohol was bad physically, no one knew that booze is a liver toxin and causes ur skin to go yukky! it was thought to be a socially problematic thing. the quran came in and forbade its use in any situation, thereby giving no excuse for its consumption

from the idea that we shouldnt damage our bodies through booze or smokes or pot comes other ideas that we shouldnt put our body in harms way, so like i said, the reasoning in these matters are what we learn to apply in our lives and in modern society.

hope that helps
 

mz_purfect

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HotShot said:
Firstly we can see the biase in your comment, why are you being discriminative? "western author".
Firstly, dont you mean BIAS without an e?
Well think about it logically, this discussion is being held with regards to the Muslim Eastern context of Islam. So of course any western fiction author has no place here. I mean, if a Muslim said something about a Bible, I highly doubt if the preists will refer to that. Its all about credibility. As to your question regarding the validity of all the Hadiths, these have been validated by the pious Muslims around 1,300 years ago, the generations of people whose parents etc used to be in the most blessed company of the Prophet (salalaho alayhay wasalam).

well mark twain has been validated, by many people, including muslims.
um, can you back that statement up with some authority? And just in case your unaware, Mark Twain and Byron are FICTITIOUS authors, that means that their compositions are IMAGINARY. How on earth can you comparing the factual Hadiths of Bukhari with a fictional author? Talk about discrepancy! Its just like me comparing Alice in Wonderland with the Bible. Of course, Muslims analyse fictional texts, its called -- 'studying literature'.

dogs do bite humans, but humans murder people. which is worse? humans of course why because we have brain to think? does dog have brain like ours?
are you saying that we as humans, should kick out our HUMAN counterparts, leave our families and commence living with dogs. Great analogy there. Why don't you make a start?

but that good cos you can ask some good shit.
I have this habit of not taking people who use vulgar language seriously.
 
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HotShot

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the conversation was regarding dogs, i believe they are all around the world. Mark Twain comment was on dogs and not on islam.

my question still remains, next who has validated Bukhari and Sahih, dont tell me the muslims, because basically they have to follow it. any others?

you said dogs are bad and have been forbidden just because they bite people, is this a valid statement?

who determines the vulgarity of language, do you? or does god?
personally if you didnt take seriously or if you did it, do you think i care?

do you think i care, if you dont answer? what i care about is nothing!

<QUOTE>are you saying that we as humans, should kick out our HUMAN counterparts, leave our families and commence living with dogs. Great analogy there. Why don't you make a start?</QUOTE>

hmm.. you can answer that question yourself, cos thats not what i said!
 

mz_purfect

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HotShot said:
the conversation was regarding dogs, i believe they are all around the world. Mark Twain comment was on dogs and not on islam.
Um if you re-read my statement, I was answering the Twain thing in relation to Hadiths. Hence, I was comparing the textual integrity of fiction and non-fiction. My apologies if my thinking is a bit complicated. I wasn't comparing Twain to the Hadith's in regards to dogs, just in regards to which one had more credibility the Hadith or Twain. Also, when I said that this discussion is about Islam, I was referring to this forum. Not the dog thing.

my question still remains, next who has validated Bukhari and Sahih, dont tell me the muslims, because basically they have to follow it. any others?
what would it matter to you. Becuase even if someone can be bothered to tell you the whole thing about it, then you'd return with your ludicrous statments that Hadiths are fairy-tales and wotnot. Is that fair? I have had an entire lecture on Hadiths and could prolly tell you the whole history of it, but what the point if my time and effort will be ridiculed with some trivial comeback.

you said dogs are bad and have been forbidden just because they bite people, is this a valid statement?
I NEVER said that. Get your facts right or re-read my posts again. Dogs are forbidden becuase they're impure, najis. The above pronouncement was a mere comeback to those who claim that dogs are a great for security. Personally I'd rather choose a security alarm than a dog. Who knows when it will go berserk. As you can see, I am not a particular fan of dogs. I had this incident once overseas with dogs. Yes its plural. DogS. Hence my attitude towards them.

who determines the vulgarity of language, do you? or does god?
personally if you didnt take seriously or if you did it, do you think i care?
hey, your getting all personal here. No need. This is just how I am. I really can't stand people who cant control their tongue. Of course Allah is the Judge. And Allah also commands Muslims to watch their tongues and not talk to people who can't control their tongues. This is becuase, beleive it or not, at one point in time, it does influence the person who is in the company of these people.

do you think i care, if you dont answer?
Neither do I. It would have been nice to hear some plausible questions from non-Muslims. Not some ridiculous understatements that attack the Hadiths as fairy-tales. As a Muslim, I highly cherish all the Hadiths simply becuase they are the words/actions of the most perfect human and Muslim this world has ever seen. And for whom this world was made for. So please mind it that you don't repeat such profanities again. Oh and btw, I only replied to this post of yours becuase you didnt swear. :)

hmm.. you can answer that question yourself, cos thats not what i said!
um thats why I asked: ARE YOU SAYING that. Is that your implication.

Advice for you, next time try not to denigrate someone's belief as fairy-tales. Words or any man cannot do a single harm to the status of Hadiths or anything esle or anyONE in Islam. The person saying such things only harms their integrity which has a social effect of people not taking them seriously.
 

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look, hotshot, in all honesty you can't just rely on the word of one muslim to validate the claims made, yes dogs are 'forbidden' to an extent but its not only because they bite, which is a rarity anyway, they are often dirty in behaviour and physicality, yes modern medicine has allowed significant advances in animal hygeine, yet the nature of dogs will inevitably expose them to their usual sources of uncleanliness, nonetheless we don't forsake dogs, rather acknowledge their loyal, protective behaviour and as such are allowed to keep them in certain circumstances.

everyone keeps saying there is no compromise in Islam, in some cases there is
a blind Muslim is more than entitled to a guide dog as much as a sick dying Muslim is entitled to take medicine which may contain an alcoholic portion, purely to save his/her own life. A malnourished, starving Muslim is quite entitled to eat haram food if that is the ONLY option he she has.
 

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HotShot said:
my question still remains, next who has validated Bukhari and Sahih, dont tell me the muslims, because basically they have to follow it. any others?
first of all sahih is not a person
it is a word used to describe a piece of text that is "sound" in transmission and narration

the process by which these hadiths were collected can be analysed and we can judge how authentic they are

not all hadiths which were recorded are classed as authentic

buhkari memorised around about 800,000 hadiths, but in his books on hadith, he only put in the ones which were authentic. that was around a few hundred thousand (maybe 300 000). no one has ever counted them :)

he had his tests for what is authentic and what is not

this is an interesting piece

he lived at the time where transmission lines could be traced easily - about 3 generations to the companions i think, so he followed where people heard this from, the people memorised whatever they could remember

so bukhari goes to one village, finds the man he's looking for, judges his character as an honest person and sane etc, then makes him recite the hadith of by heart, then asks where he got it from

so he traces it to the source of the narration. U see, the prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) was a public as well as a private figure

so he gave his teachings in public most of the time, and these teaches were memorised by the companions. later these companions travelled to different parts of arabia (islam took just over 100 years to get up to spain and india and china) and taught the people there the hadiths and quran

so bukhari (from central asia) collected the hadiths and traced the path of narration in different parts of the islamic world to different companions who all got it from the prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace)

so if the people of central asia knew this hadith, word for word verbatim with those people of africa, it must follow that the transmission of narration was kept intact! Bukhari was very careful in this regard. modern orientalists would agree, its only the missionaries and trouble makers in the lands who stirr up stuff they dont even understand what they're talkin about!
 

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when it came to assesing where the people got it from, he would ask for they're ages their names, juddge their characters, their livelihoods etc

he lived in the time where people double checked and triple checked any piece of info they got

nowadays our pm tells us that parents are throwing kids overboard and everyone jumps up in fury. where were u to verify that hot shot? :)
 

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mz_purfect said:
Neither do I. It would have been nice to hear some plausible questions from non-Muslims. Not some ridiculous understatements that attack the Hadiths as fairy-tales. As a Muslim, I highly cherish all the Hadiths simply becuase they are the words/actions of the most perfect human and Muslim this world has ever seen. And for whom this world was made for. So please mind it that you don't repeat such profanities again. Oh and btw, I only replied to this post of yours becuase you didnt swear. :)
Those your viewpoints on Hadiths, naturally not everyone will have those viewpoints. Thus you have to expect "ridculous" questions from people of hadiths.
Mine are quite different so naturally they will be conflicting and you have to understand that. I will mind what i need and you need not tell me what to do thank you.

Think about the hadiths, as if you are not a muslim, do you ever take that perceptive? Try to understand from non-muslim view. To me, it's like instructions for someone who has no common sense. Give me short not too long example of a hadith and i will show what i mean.

SO you say Bukhari researched these hadiths, well how can you trust himself?
Remember politics can be changed by simply passing laws, religion its a lot harder. Thus dont compare to political events and religion, they dont match up. OR do they?


people are lectured to handle trivial comebacks and so forth, otherwise wats the point. you can just read it yourself. why bother going to a lecture?
 

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The hadith, as has been mentioned countless times are guidelines by which we should lvie our lives, rules and suggestions for every day life, you want examples? ok here goes:
From the Chapter of Charity and Good Deeds
On the authority of Aby Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) who said:
The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said; "Every part of a person's body must perform a charity everyday the sun comes up: to act justly between to people is a charity; to help a man with his mount, lifiting him onto it or hoisting his belongings onto it is a charity; a good word is a charity; every step you take to prayers is a charity and removing a harmful thing from the road is a charity'
(Bukhari and Muslim)

On the authority of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him):
"If a Muslim plants or cultivates, whatever another man or animal eats from his plants is a charity for him"
(Muslim)

On the authority of Salman bin Amir (may Allah be pleased with him) who said:
The Prophet (pbuh) said: Giving charity to the poor is a charity, and giving to a relative amounts to two good deeds i.e charity and benevolence to kinsmen"
(Tirmizi)
From the Chapter of Good Manners

On the authority of Abu Musa (may Allah be pleased with him) who said:
The Messenger of Allah (pbuh)said: "When one of you asks for permission three times and it is not granted, you should stop asking for it and turn back."
(Bukhari and Muslim)
that one i love, it addresses the root of good manners and it is so true. i try to practise and not become a nagging annoying person.

On the authority of Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) who said:
The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said: "Avoid suspicion, for suspicion is the greatest lie. Do not be inquisitive about one another, or spy on one another. DO not outbid one another with a view to raising the price. Do not feel jealous and do not hold grudges against another. Do not backbite, but be teh servants of Allah like brothers amongst yourselves."
(Bukhari and Muslim)
that one i also love, they make so much sense in order for one to live a peaceful, happy cordial life.

there's more but you said you wanted something short, so i'll give you time to digest those.
 
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tangerinespeedo said:
you're right politics and religion should always be mutually exclusive, and in our case it is.

I was under the impression that there was no such distinction in Islam (Mohammad being a prophet and politician, after all)?
 

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That's what I thought too... Islam's a way of life, covering EVERYTHING you could think of, including politics.
 

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Generator said:
I was under the impression that there was no such distinction in Islam (Mohammad being a prophet and politician, after all)?
In fact Generator and nekkid you are both spot on! while Hotshot is utterly wrong. This is becuase Islam makes no distinction whatsoever with politics and the law. In fact in Islam the law is shariah and politics as anyone who has read Islamic history will tell you, were an important part of the lives of most companions and Prophets (peace be upon them all). In the Western sphere, law is an autocratic entity and with secularism its means that law, religion and politics are all separate in the Western world. This is not the case in Islam hence you will find countries like Saudia Arabic or Pakistan follow an Islamic law and Islamic political science, These laws can never be changed becuase these laws are NOT posited (positivism) like the Western laws, these laws are natural laws, made by the Almighty and are eterenal.

I'll quote a few famous paragraphs by Michael Hart who wrote the Book- (1978)‑ The 100: A Ranking of the most Influential Persons in History. Carol Publishing Group, New York, USA. In this quote Hart justifies why he ranked Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) the worlds MOST influential man in history and why he rated Jesus (pbuh) second.

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels"

"On the purely religious level, then, it seems likely that Muhammad has been as influential in human history as Jesus. Furthermore, Muhammad (unlike Jesus) was a secular as well as a religious leader. In fact, as the driving force behind the Arab conquests, he may well rank as the most influential political leader of all time.

"Nothing similar [like the Arab conquests] had occurred before Muhammad, and there is no reason to believe that the conquests would have been achieved without him. The only comparable conquests in human history are those of the Mongols in the thirteenth century, which were primarily due to the influence of Genghis Khan. These conquests, however, though more extensive than those of the Arabs, did not prove permanent, and today the only areas occupied by the Mongols are those that they held prior to the time of Genghis Khan. It is far different with the conquests of the Arabs. From Iraq to Morocco, there extends a whole chain of Moslem nations united not merely by their faith in Islam, but also by their Arabic language, history, and culture.

The centrality of the Koran in the Moslem religion and the fact that it is written in Arabic have probably prevented the Arab language from breaking up into mutually unintelligible dialects, which might otherwise have occurred in the intervening thirteen centuries. Differences and divisions between these Arab states exist, of course, and they are considerable, but the partial disunity should not blind us to the important elements of unity that have continued to exist. For instance, neither Iran nor Indonesia, both oil-producing states and both Islamic in religion joined in the oil embargo of the winter of 1973-74. It is no coincidence that all of the Arab states, and only the Arab states, participated in the embargo. We see, then, that the Arab conquests of the seventh century have continued to play an important role in human history, down to the present day. It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.

So, if anyone actually reads the life history of the Prophet pbuh (apparently Generator has :)) is is quite obvious that Muhammad (pbuh) was a religious leader as well as a wise politican.
 

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i stand corrected :)

im not the clearest person on politics
 
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HotShot said:
Those your viewpoints on Hadiths, naturally not everyone will have those viewpoints. Thus you have to expect "ridculous" questions from people of hadiths.
Mine are quite different so naturally they will be conflicting and you have to understand that. I will mind what i need and you need not tell me what to do thank you.
I have been asked questions (btw yours was NOT a question it was an offensive denunciation of the Ahadith)by Aussies who are cowboys (as in farmers without any knowledge of Islam whatsoever) and none of their statements have ever been as 'ridiculous' as yours (considering your location anyway, I really doubt it that you're a non-Muslim. But I couldn't care less). None of them have ever denounced Ahadith as fairy tales. Which leads me to this hypothesis about you: It seems to me that you have some problem with the fact that Muslims love and cherish their Prophet (countless peace and blessings be on his blessed self from Allah Ameen!) to the extent of being obsessvie. And you're just jealous of that.

Think about the hadiths, as if you are not a muslim, do you ever take that perceptive? Try to understand from non-muslim view. To me, it's like instructions for someone who has no common sense. Give me short not too long example of a hadith and i will show what i mean.
isnt perceptive used in the wrong sense here, lol. Sorry I find it hard to just ostracise people's grammatical errors. As to your question, following Ahadith is PART of my life, how can I ever think outside the square I have lived in since I was born? Also, indeed, Hadith are instructions for the common-sense MUSLIMS. My emphasis on Muslims is that unless, you're a Muslim , you can never understand the status of these Hadiths and how extra-common-sensical they seem to us. For instance one of the Hadiths tell women to dress modestly. And as a girl living in a society wear girls who wear tight-stuff are perved at, I can certainly see the wisdom behind that Hadith. All the Hadiths of Prophet (countless blessings upon him) are common-sense to us. Because he is Allah's Prophet. Whatever comes out of his mouth and his actions are precisely the commands of Allah. So if you look at it this way, the Quran is just a text version of Allah's commands while Muhammad (pbuh) was a living example of the Quran.
As to your self-invoked challenge on 'giving you a Hadith so you can show us how non-sensical they are'. I cant beleive you just said that. Funny. You and prove a Hadith is NOT common-sensical? Riiiiiiiiiiight. As a Muslim, no one can do that. Dont you think many people (enemies of Islam and the Prophet) would have tried that anyway but in vain?
SO you say Bukhari researched these hadiths, well how can you trust himself?
What on earth do you mean, this Ahadith have been followed by each and every Muslim. For instance, all Muslims pray, and as I have already told you, instructions on HOW to pray are NOT mentioned in the Quran, hence we have to look upto Hadiths to clarify this. Naturally, these Hadiths have been validated, certified and analysed as well as explicated with historical accounts from the Prophet's (pbuh) times by scholars throught the world of Islam. Can you imagine, 1400 years of extensive investigation and analysis? That is why we follow these hadthis. We follow these Ahadith simply becuase they have been accounted for and have passed all stages of the investigation process. Its just like trusting any aspect of history that has been validated by scholars. Its just like one believing the accounts of Cicero or Aristotle which have contanlty been analysed. Again, I pose this question, why people can just beleive what NASA tells them (guess wot theres a new planet) but not the historical religious Ahadith that have undergone intense analysis because of their significane for Muslims worldwide.

people are lectured to handle trivial comebacks and so forth, otherwise wats the point. you can just read it yourself. why bother going to a lecture?
uhhh...Come again?

Btw, JazakAllah mr_eazy, your contribution is always valuable bro! Just one more thing: Bukhari would have like a 1000 people who could recount a single saying of the Prophet (pbuh) and then he would go to the village of each person and ask people who knew any of these 1000 people about their integrity. So if a person came up to him and said, I heard the Prophet (pbuh) say this, then he would ask about a 100 or so people about whether that person had ever lied or been caught for any sort of crime of dishonesty. If that was the case, Bukhari (rau) would disregard anything that person said and move on. Thus, he would only compile Ahadith of those people who have never been accused of anything and were crystal clear in terms of their Iman and public reputation. This is why it is beleived that Bukhari rejected almost 300-500 thousand 'narrations' and only compiled about 150,000 of those soley after certifications by countless people. May Allah always bless him Ameen. What I find interesting is that Bukhari was acutally blind by birth and told to never see by all the docs of the time. But his mum always prayed for him with the belief that one day Allah will bless him vision. And then a miracle happened and for a good reason to- or who would have done the incredbile work of compling these Ahadith. So never loose faith in Allah!
 

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can we stop the negative racial connotations please? this thread is turning way too aggressive for my liking
 

mr EaZy

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exactly right, i had to limit my answer before to what i knew and not what i wasnt 100% sure on.
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islam and politics. no. islam is politics!
----------------

in legal studies (which ill be doing next sem) we'll see how islamic law is closely tied to religon. in fact it is interwoven. because islam is more than just a religon.....


and i hope that people viewing these threads can appreciate what Islam is, because there are some loners out there wishing to spread misinformation about our way of life. we dont do it to others.................(make your own conclusions)
 

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what i lvoe about Islam is how science is not forsaken by religion, yet intertwined within i, everything from creation, to the composition of the earth, the architectural significance of mountains,seas etc..all there and it's all only just been discovered...the Qu'ran never ceases to astound me
 

mr EaZy

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regarding the hadiths, we need them as the prophet Muhammad was sent as an exemplar for hummanity to follow his lead.

One scholar (a british convert natuarally) from cambridge uni came to sydney once and said: the difference between Islam and philosophy is that Islam comes with an exemplar - who embodies the values and teachings of the religon. This prophet in fact showed to us that Islam can be applied to every aspects of our lives. and the people who studied his life, as the mathematician/philosopher/scientist Michael Hart as cited by MZ purfect recognised his perfection.
 

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