The 'left' = dirty? (4 Viewers)

[absolution*]

Waging war and torture seem the be the most extreme forms of violence i can think of.

 

[Comrade nathan]

Oh yeah i forgot about that.

 

[paper cup]

mostly because the left is associated with raving lunatics that CLAIM to be socialists or whatnot but actually have no fucking idea what they're talking about

a lot of self proclaimed 'lefties' pervert facts or decent concepts. for example environmental conservation is definitely a good thing but some of the greenies take it too far.

and will some of the marxists wake up and realise that marx was writing in the freaking 19th century, his ideas were idealistic and impractical, and therefore not applicable to the modern world.

this has been a public service announcement...

hey, eminem song

 

[Jago]

Jay-Z - Public Service Announcement Lyrics

This is a public service announcement
Sponsored by Just Blaze and the good folks at Roc-A-Fella
Records

"Fellow Americans, it is with the utmost pride and sincerity
that I present this recording, as a living testiment and
recollection
of history in the making during our generation."

[Jay-Z]
Allow me to re-introduce myself
My name is Hov', OH, H-to-the-O-V
I used to move snowflakes by the O-Z
I guess even back then you can call me
CEO of the R-O-C, Hov'!
Fresh out the fryin pan into the fire
I be the, music biz number one supplier
Flyer/flier than a piece of paper bearin my name
Got the hottest chick in the game wearin my chain, that's right
Hov', OH - not D.O.C.
But similar to them letters, "No One Can Do it Better"
I check cheddar like a food inspector
My homey Strict told me, "Dude finish your breakfast"
So that's what I'ma do, take you back to the dude
with the Lexus, fast-forward the jewels and the necklace
Let me tell you dudes what I do to protect this
I shoot at you actors like movie directors {*laughing*}
This ain't a movie dog (oh shit)

"Now before I finish, let me just say
I did not come here to show out, did not come here to impress
you
Because to tell you the truth when I leave here I'm GONE!
And I don't care WHAT you think about me - but just remember,
when it hits the fan brother, whether it's next year, ten years,

twenty years from now, you're gonna be able to say
that these brothers lied to you JACK!"

[Jay-Z]
Ving ain't lie
I done came through the block in everything that's fly
I'm like, Che Guevara with bling on, I'm complex
I never claimed to have wings on
Nigga I get mine - by any means on whenever there's a drought
Get your umbrellas out because, that's when I brainstorm
You can blame Shawn, but I ain't invent the game
I just rolled the dice, tryin to get some change
And I do it twice, ain't no sense in me
lyin as if, I am a different man
And I could blame my environment but
there ain't no reason why I be buyin expensive chains
Hope you don't think youse as hardy
Only a fews-us niggaz, gettin high within the game
If you do then, how would you explain?
I'm ten years removed, still the vibe is in my veins
I got a hustler spirit, nigga period
Check out my hat yo, peep the way I wear it
Check out my swag' yo, I walk like a ballplayer
No matter where you go, you are what you are player
And you can try to change but that's just as hot player
Man, you was who you was 'fore you got here
Only God can judge me, so I'm gone
Either love me, or leave me alone

* Now, back to our regular scheduled program *

 

[paper cup]

Jay-Z - Public Service Announcement Lyrics

This is a public service announcement
Sponsored by Just Blaze and the good folks at Roc-A-Fella
Records

"Fellow Americans, it is with the utmost pride and sincerity
that I present this recording, as a living testiment and
recollection
of history in the making during our generation."

[Jay-Z]
Allow me to re-introduce myself
My name is Hov', OH, H-to-the-O-V
I used to move snowflakes by the O-Z
I guess even back then you can call me
CEO of the R-O-C, Hov'!
Fresh out the fryin pan into the fire
I be the, music biz number one supplier
Flyer/flier than a piece of paper bearin my name
Got the hottest chick in the game wearin my chain, that's right
Hov', OH - not D.O.C.
But similar to them letters, "No One Can Do it Better"
I check cheddar like a food inspector
My homey Strict told me, "Dude finish your breakfast"
So that's what I'ma do, take you back to the dude
with the Lexus, fast-forward the jewels and the necklace
Let me tell you dudes what I do to protect this
I shoot at you actors like movie directors {*laughing*}
This ain't a movie dog (oh shit)

"Now before I finish, let me just say
I did not come here to show out, did not come here to impress
you
Because to tell you the truth when I leave here I'm GONE!
And I don't care WHAT you think about me - but just remember,
when it hits the fan brother, whether it's next year, ten years,

twenty years from now, you're gonna be able to say
that these brothers lied to you JACK!"

[Jay-Z]
Ving ain't lie
I done came through the block in everything that's fly
I'm like, Che Guevara with bling on, I'm complex
I never claimed to have wings on
Nigga I get mine - by any means on whenever there's a drought
Get your umbrellas out because, that's when I brainstorm
You can blame Shawn, but I ain't invent the game
I just rolled the dice, tryin to get some change
And I do it twice, ain't no sense in me
lyin as if, I am a different man
And I could blame my environment but
there ain't no reason why I be buyin expensive chains
Hope you don't think youse as hardy
Only a fews-us niggaz, gettin high within the game
If you do then, how would you explain?
I'm ten years removed, still the vibe is in my veins
I got a hustler spirit, nigga period
Check out my hat yo, peep the way I wear it
Check out my swag' yo, I walk like a ballplayer
No matter where you go, you are what you are player
And you can try to change but that's just as hot player
Man, you was who you was 'fore you got here
Only God can judge me, so I'm gone
Either love me, or leave me alone

* Now, back to our regular scheduled program *

eminem did it first.

 

[shady_03]

Public service announcement 2000

[Jeff Bass]
This is a public service announcement brought to you in part by slim shady. Slim shady does not give a fuck what you think. If you dont like it, you can suck his fukin cock. Little did u know, that upon purchasing this album, you have just kissed hiss ass. Nething else?

[Eminem] Yeah... sue me

 

[Sarah]

and will some of the marxists wake up and realise that marx was writing in the freaking 19th century, his ideas were idealistic and impractical, and therefore not applicable to the modern world.

Actually, it can be viewed as applicable to some countries today. There is a reason why dependency theory exists and you can seel some aspects of it represented in differing levels of economic development and the international division of labour

 

[Comrade nathan]

and will some of the marxists wake up and realise that marx was writing in the freaking 19th century, his ideas were idealistic and impractical, and therefore not applicable to the modern world.

There are very few traditonal Marxist, as in thoose who did not take the step from Marxism to Marxism-Leninism.

Most Marxist today are Marxist-Leninist, and the revolutionary Marxist in the 3rd world are Marxist-Leninist-Maoist, updating Maxist theory to the contributions of Mao.

Even today in the first world Bourgiese universities a perveted form of Marxism is taught in Sociology, focusing mainly on "conflict theory" (well thats what the call it anyway).

So it is you who should wake up and get with the new program of Marxism.

 

[paper cup]

There are very few traditonal Marxist, as in thoose who did not take the step from Marxism to Marxism-Leninism.

Most Marxist today are Marxist-Leninist, and the revolutionary Marxist in the 3rd world are Marxist-Leninist-Maoist, updating Maxist theory to the contributions of Mao.

Even today in the first world Bourgiese universities a perveted form of Marxism is taught in Sociology, focusing mainly on "conflict theory" (well thats what the call it anyway).

So it is you who should wake up and get with the new program of Marxism.

the key word there was 'some'

I was referring the to the hardline Marxists.

 

[tWiStEdD]

"y is it that u hate the left (and its supporters) so bad? Not trying 2 start a huge argument, but yeah im just interested 2 know. Ur posts are really agressive and attacking towards the left. why? (and dont just say coz their stupid and feral)"
"y is it that u hate the left (and its supporters) so bad? Not trying 2 start a huge argument, but yeah im just interested 2 know. Ur posts are really agressive and attacking towards the left. why? (and dont just say coz their stupid and feral)"
"Lol ok, well (i dunno about you) but i think that we r smart enuf not 2 resort to childish name calling (which i admit am guilty of) to prove a point or 2 show our "hatred" of opposite sides. I think wer'e capable of having logical discussions, no matter wat side wer'e on"

I despair at the lack of a basic grasp of English grammar this board seems to promote. If you wish to post here then - for the sake of your education and for my continued peace of mind - attempt to use grammar befitting one of similar age, intelligence and maturity. My nine year old sister knows the difference between 'your' and 'you're'; pray don't tell me that you can't?

The left is dirty because they scorn the wealthy only to end up too poor to afford running water. Of course I don't mean that and in the end all generalisations are false anyway (think about it, eh?) but the left make far too many assumptions: Among them would be the current buzz word 'foreign debt'; Any educated person could teach them that forgiving such debt is possibly more immoral than not forgiving it. Weak minded and/or less intelligent individuals tend to be drawn to the left and the more strong minded and/or more intelligent people tend to be drawn towards the right; It is the way of things.

 

[White Rabbit]

It's not that the left is 'dirty', it's that the extreme left are generally ignorant people who want this perfect world, yet are completley unrealistic. I don't associate myself with the left because of my beliefs, but I don't recall saying it should be avoided at all costs - I made two posts on July 1st (I checked) one in the IR thread about nurses pay rates + conditions, and one in 'July 1st 2005 - Inevitablility' thread about the difference between unionism and left wingers. We need a moderate left, just as we need a moderate right to keep everything blanced. Extreme left should be avoided, but then so should the extreme right - or extreme anything for that matter. You shouldn't be so blinded by your own beliefs you ignore every fact that stands against it, which is what the extremists do.

 

[White Rabbit]

I despair at the lack of a basic grasp of English grammar this board seems to promote. If you wish to post here then - for the sake of your education and for my continued peace of mind - attempt to use grammar befitting one of similar age, intelligence and maturity. My nine year old sister knows the difference between 'your' and 'you're'; pray don't tell me that you can't?

The left is dirty because they scorn the wealthy only to end up too poor to afford running water. Of course I don't mean that and in the end all generalisations are false anyway (think about it, eh?) but the left make far too many assumptions: Among them would be the current buzz word 'foreign debt'; Any educated person could teach them that forgiving such debt is possibly more immoral than not forgiving it. Weak minded and/or less intelligent individuals tend to be drawn to the left and the more strong minded and/or more intelligent people tend to be drawn towards the right; It is the way of things.

It's the extreme left who share these beliefs, and generally why I don't like them. However, the extreme right see the working class and those of the low socio-economic class as scum who have dug their own hole, and see no reason to aid them - everything revolves around money, and greater productivity, at any expense. Both extremes are something to avoid.

I don't agree that only the intelligent draw towards the right. There a many ignorant moron who are right wingers, just as there are many well educated, intelligent people on the left. You'd find the intelligent ones are moderates - they have beliefs on either side, don't close off any thought that disagrees with their own, and can support their ideas and beliefs beyond 'It'll get us rich' or 'those poor starving people - it's all the west's fault!'. You have educated and dumb people on both sides of the fence.

About the grammer, this is the internet - it's easier to adopt 'net speak' than make sure you've edited every post. I don't see a problem with it, and rarley draw conclusions on people's intelligence and grammatical skills over the net, based on their use of 'net speak'.

 

[malkin86]

Weak minded and/or less intelligent individuals tend to be drawn to the left and the more strong minded and/or more intelligent people tend to be drawn towards the right; It is the way of things.

You assume that you and yours will be strong forever.

 

[Phanatical]

Within the left are two distinct schools of thought that I have noticed - Ideological Left, and Pragmatic Left. Unfortunately, the Pragmatic Left essentially does not exist, except for people like me.

 

[White Rabbit]

I can assure you, not all Right wingers are like that. There are right wingers from poor classes, and rich classes. The rich classes may be more inclined to think like that, but that is a personal stance and does not influence someones position on the political scale as such.

Some right wing people may see the lower class as necessary to the class structure (someone has to be on the bottom) and so they would not hold a grudge against them.

I said the extreme right wing, not all. I know very very extreme right wingers from the working class - they may be social conversatives, but the majority of the working class will support workers rights over business growth and employer rights, because they are the workers.

That is not to do with Left or Right as such. There are greedy people from all areas of the political spectrum. And when it comes to greater productivity, that may in a sense be a left wing ideal (the centralising of all industry in favour of the government (aka communism)).

Its very hard to generalise in this modern era.

It's actually very easy to generalise, however it's hardly fact.

And communism in it's purest form, theoretically has no basis in greed. However greed is something inherent to all humans - given the power, people generally take what they can - power corupts. absolute power corupts absolutley.

When it comes to greater productivty, the aims behind it is important - right wingers want it as it generates more wealth for the upper classes and fuels economic growth. Theoretically, centralising industry under communism would be, not to generate wealth for the rich, but rather generate wealth for the nation as all earnings should be returned to the citizens. However, communism has never worked and i doubt it ever will.

Aswell, in regards to the extreme right and extreme left (and I mean as extreme as you can go) while they're polar opposites, they're very similar at the same time.

 

[Comrade nathan]

Some right wing people may see the lower class as necessary to the class structure (someone has to be on the bottom) and so they would not hold a grudge against them.

That is more reactionary then having a grudge against them.

However greed is something inherent to all humans - given the power, people generally take what they can - power corupts. absolute power corupts absolutley

How do you explain technology primative societies that had a rough hierachy and production was distributed in a equal system.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

This is a worthy thread, McLake, so try not to close it down too soon (please).

There seems to be a belief (on this forum, at least) that an association with the 'left' is something that one should avoid at all costs (White Rabbit in the 1 July thread, for example). Basically, I would like to know what is it that makes the 'left' dirty, as some would say. More often than not, people seem to argue that it's to be expected given the simplistic ranting of many on the 'left', but as we all know that is hardly limited to any particular political stance.

Does anyone (I'm thinking of NTB and possibly Jonathon A in particular) have a some what rational answer?

(I'm going to ignore all the rather immature and stupid posts about lefties being idiots or some such thing. Grow up. And incidentally the left are usually attacked as being part of the cultural elite - ie. the educated/intellectuals.)

The problem is that left and right attitudes are reactionary a lot of the time. The recent revival of conservative attitudes can in part be attributed to a reaction against the left. It is almost a rebellion against 'cliche goodness'.

University students in particular, when they get to their institution, are faced with a massive mainstream of leftist thinking. This can led to a rebellion against what people perceive as ignorant leftists. They see a lot of students jumping on the bandwagon to go and protest with very loud, often uninformed activists. They see people joining a 'mob' of sometimes very ignorant and fanatical students. They see lefties handing out everything from flyers about environmental issues to extreme socialist newspapers. They see these people and think, "these people are extremist idiots". And you know what, sometimes they are spot on.

Hence we come to the problem. There is a distinction between leftist thinking, and those who support the left. The leftist crowd does contain some very annoying and ignorant people. Extreme people. It is these people who give the left a "dirty" reputation. People see this and rebel against the mainstream. They look to conservatism.

But they often do so not on a substantive basis. They often turn to conservative thinking not because of it's validity, but because of the many fools in the leftist camp. But those fools do not represent the entire of the left. They only account for one end of it, or one loud end of it. Furthermore, the existence of a number of fools can obfuscate their arguments. Because they can be over the top, people tend to write their opinions off completely, even though there is often some element of truth in what is being put forward - just a toned down version is all.

The same goes for right-wingers. There exists a fair share of ignorant, extremist right-wing people in that camp. But they are not representative of the entire right. Nor does them being extreme invalidate ALL of the arguments of the right.

However, I believe the difference is that, despite the two stereotypes and bitter exaggerations that ensue when the two groups attack each other, being left of the centre when it comes to social views is often the morally correct choice. Being right-wing when it comes to social views is often wrong. Reactions to political correctness, for example, are not founded on reason or validity, they are founded - as I mentioned earlier - as a reaction against the left.

But the economic spectrum is very much arguable.

 

[Monkey Butler]

What he said.

 

[White Rabbit]

^^ Thats about it, methinks.

 

[withoutaface]

However, I believe the difference is that, despite the two stereotypes and bitter exaggerations that ensue when the two groups attack each other, being left of the centre when it comes to social views is often the morally correct choice. Being right-wing when it comes to social views is often wrong. Reactions to political correctness, for example, are not founded on reason or validity, they are founded - as I mentioned earlier - as a reaction against the left.

I disagree, conservative social views are most of the time just as valid as progressive ones. Political correctness can take annoyingly moronic tangents, such as feminists deciding that women is in fact spelt womyn, and if anyone wishes to argue that the effort spent in changing the spelling of a word to appease the negligable number of people who care, not because they feel insulted or insubordinated by the spelling of the word, but because they want to be noticed for looking alternative, is logically justified, then go ahead.