Contradiction (2 Viewers)

[anonymous.92]

Wow so this is what Islam has given us? Perpetual subjugation, albeit at disparate levels.

So you've unequivocally conceded the subjugation that Islam subjects its worshippers to. Nice.

Oh, give me a break. That was so not what I meant. Subjugation goes on everywhere. Even Australia. Duh.

 

[anonymous.92]

It's not narrow mindedness, just plain logic. Of course not everyone is unhappy.

So I'll take your silence as an indication that you forfeit your argument that rather then some people in Muslim countries being unfairly subjugated in terms of freedoms and human rights (and as a result of this, in terms of other things such as education etc.), most are.

So if you'll sign here, and here, and here and admit that Arab and Muslim countries are shit, or at least shittier than Western countries, we can all go home happy. Till the next fail thread comes along, at least.

No, I do not forfeit my arguement... I still stand by what I have always believed... some people are subjugated overseas...

You, on the other hand, believe that most are. I'm just saying that from this point onwards, arguing between "some" and "more" sounds absolutely ridiculous.

I'm just satisfied that you don't believe all are subjugated. I'm sorry for thinking that you believed all are subjugated, thus leading me to feel you were being narrow-minded. That was my fault, not yours.

 

[JonathanM]

No, I do not forfeit my arguement... I still stand by what I have always believed... some people are subjugated overseas...

You, on the other hand, believe that most are. I'm just saying that from this point onwards, arguing between "some" and "more" sounds absolutely ridiculous.

I'm just satisfied that you don't believe all are subjugated. I'm sorry for thinking that you believed all are subjugated, thus leading me to feel you were being narrow-minded. That was my fault, not yours.

No, there is a difference, for fucks sake.

Saying 'some' in the context you are using it in implies that those who are subjugated are an exception to the rule, that it is a minority of people who are subjugated. This is not the case. I believe I have successfully argued that most, if not all women are subjugated to some extent in Arab/Muslim countries. That is already around half the population. Then you have to consider the other restrictions on all Muslims, not just women, i.e. not being able to go to bars, clubs and concerts and not being allowed to attend spontaneous demonstrations.

adj. Superlative of many., much.

• 1. Greatest in number: won the most votes.
  2. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion

You're really trying to get out of this without conceding anything. Let me remind you that not long ago you were arguing:

The issue at hand, from memory, was whether Muslim women in Muslim countries are all subjugated leading miserable lives.

I'm saying the majority don't lead depressing lives, even in many of those countries you listed. You know, bars and concerts aren't the definition of "fun." There's certainly a lot more to life than that.

So, by making the assumption that a woman who's Muslim, living in an Islamic country is oppressed, doesn't really hold.

Pakistan?!?!?!?! You can't be serious. If you knew anything about Pakistan you'd realise that many women do not wear the hijab. Obviously, some do. But in that country, a woman who does not wear it, faces absolutely no intimidation whatsoever.

Oh, but of course,

I've travelled overseas before, and I've witnessed firsthand how happy many Muslim women and men are there, despite any political turmoil. That is why I took umbrage to your initial statement that Muslim men and women are basically oppressed.

You've seen happy Muslim women, so most of them couldn't possibly be oppressed and subjugated. Cause you've seen them, yeah.

 

[anonymous.92]

No, there is a difference, for fucks sake.

Saying 'some' in the context you are using it in implies that those who are subjugated are an exception to the rule, that it is a minority of people who are subjugated. This is not the case. I believe I have successfully argued that most, if not all women are subjugated to some extent in Arab/Muslim countries. That is already around half the population. Then you have to consider the other restrictions on all Muslims, not just women, i.e. not being able to go to bars, clubs and concerts and not being allowed to attend spontaneous demonstrations.


adj. Superlative of many., much.

• 1. Greatest in number: won the most votes.
  2. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion

You're really trying to get out of this without conceding anything. Let me remind you that not long ago you were arguing:


Oh, but of course,

You've seen happy Muslim women, so most of them couldn't possibly be oppressed and subjugated. Cause you've seen them, yeah.

You really like arguing with me, don't you? I still stand by everything I have said.

Look. Like I've said before, the conditions of people living in Muslim countries vary from country to country. Yes, I know you've provided statistics, but I'm still saying overall there is a major difference between Muslims living in Pakistan than there is to Malaysia than there is to Saudi Arabia.

No matter what you've said, it makes a really superficial arguement when you clump these countries under one heading, because essentially, when you get down to it, they are really different.

 

[JonathanM]

You really like arguing with me, don't you? I still stand by everything I have said.

Look. Like I've said before, the conditions of people living in Muslim countries vary from country to country. Yes, I know you've provided statistics, but I'm still saying overall there is a major difference between Muslims living in Pakistan than there is to Malaysia than there is to Saudi Arabia.

No matter what you've said, it makes a really superficial arguement when you clump these countries under one heading, because essentially, when you get down to it, they are really different.

There's some difference between them of course, but, 'when you get down to it,' they're all on average shittier than Western countries due to their shit leaders adhering to a shit religion, which was my original argument, if you can remember at all.

 

[anonymous.92]

There's some difference between them of course, but, 'when you get down to it,' they're all on average shittier than Western countries due to their shit leaders adhering to a shit religion, which was my original argument, if you can remember at all.

Well, I disagree. If the quality of their life is worse than in a Western country, it isn't because of religion, but because they don't enjoy the financial stability of Western countries.

I doubt I'll change your mind, and you won't change mine. So, goodbye.

 

[Bereie]

One of the reasons their situation is poor is their financial situation, but why is their financial situation so poor? Their religion keeps them in the dark ages. There has never been an intellectual or secular enlightenment in the Muslim world.

And it just goes round and round and round .

 

[anonymous.92]

One of the reasons their situation is poor is their financial situation, but why is their financial situation so poor? Their religion keeps them in the dark ages. There has never been an intellectual or secular enlightenment in the Muslim world.

And it just goes round and round and round .

Then how do you explain the number of developing countries that aren't run by Muslims or are predominantly Muslim? Why are they in the "dark ages?"

And actually, there was an age of intellectual enlightenment in the Muslim world. Pick up a history book, and you'll find that bit of information yourself.

 

[JonathanM]

Well, I disagree. If the quality of their life is worse than in a Western country, it isn't because of religion, but because they don't enjoy the financial stability of Western countries.

I doubt I'll change your mind, and you won't change mine. So, goodbye.

NO you fucking stubborn idiot, fuck how can you be so fucking stupid you fucking fucktard.

THINK. WHAT THE FUCK HAVE WE BEEN ARGUING ABOUT FOR THE LAST 4 PAGES?!

We have been arguing about human rights and freedoms under Islam and their shit leaders as a measure of quality of life, not economic stability. You admitted not a few posts ago that these are worse in Arab/Muslim countries, despite pulling out of your arse a shit argument that nonetheless, this shitness factor varies from country to country.

And for the record, most of these countries are oil rich and are riding off the Chinese economic boom, they have shit loads of money. A lot of the more Western nations get shitloads of aid from America as well.

It is the religion. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.

Yeah, and we have not reached any agreement, other than that you are incapable of seeing reason, even with facts thrown at you.

I know you've provided statistics... but I am going to choose to ignore these and the context they have been provided in. Rather than recognising the common factor behind all these statistics, the catalyst, per se, I am going to look upon them as irrelevent due to their slightly differing nature from country to country. Because I am hopeless.

 

[anonymous.92]

NO you fucking stubborn idiot, fuck how can you be so fucking stupid you fucking fucktard.

THINK. WHAT THE FUCK HAVE WE BEEN ARGUING ABOUT FOR THE LAST 4 PAGES?!

We have been arguing about human rights and freedoms under Islam and their shit leaders as a measure of quality of life, not economic stability. You admitted not a few posts ago that these are worse in Arab/Muslim countries, despite pulling out of your arse a shit argument that nonetheless, this shitness factor varies from country to country.

And for the record, most of these countries are oil rich and are riding off the Chinese economic boom, they have shit loads of money. A lot of the more Western nations get shitloads of aid from America as well.

It is the religion. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.

Yeah, and we have not reached any agreement, other than that you are incapable of seeing reason, even with facts thrown at you.

See, this is your problem. You're arguing that many of these countries are oil rich. Hello? You've forgotten about Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, etc etc. This is why we haven't acheived anything. Because you're insisting on talking about Muslim countries as a whole. In my head, when I was talking about financial stability, I was thinking of the aforementioned countries, yet you were thinking of oil rich countries.

See... it doesn't work. We both are thinking of different countries, when we make a point. Why can't you see that?

Because, in the countries I mentioned, some people are so poor that I bet they have never thought about a bar or concert in their entire life.

I certainly hope you realise now, how pointless it is to argue something of this magnitude by assuming all Muslim countries are the same. Honestly, it is sad that I have to point it out to you, but they are not the same.

 

[JonathanM]

See, this is your problem. You're arguing that many of these countries are oil rich. Hello? You've forgotten about Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, etc etc. This is why we haven't acheived anything. Because you're insisting on talking about Muslim countries as a whole. In my head, when I was talking about financial stability, I was thinking of the aforementioned countries, yet you were thinking of oil rich countries.

See... it doesn't work. We both are thinking of different countries, when we make a point. Why can't you see that?

NO. When it comes to rights and freedoms I am not talking about different countries. What fucking difference does it make if one country requires the husband to grant permission of travel to the wife and another requires permission of travel from the closest male relative. Or one country allows legal murder of a woman caught cheating with another country which states that one man has the legal worth of two women. That's the difference between us. Because you're a humanless prick, you see the fine line. To me it's all the fucking same. They're all fucking over their people cause of their Islam-fail-Sharia law.

I'll tell you what is sad, m8, this is sad:

Because, in the countries I mentioned, some people are so poor that I bet they have never thought about a bar or concert in their entire life.

Because not being able to afford to go to a bar or concert means that one shouldn't need the right to go to one anyway.

And lol @ you thinking poor people don't want or can't go to bars.



And for the record, Afghanistan has American aid, and illegal money from poppies + heroin. Pakistan has American aid and is a nuclear rich nation. So no, don't worry about those countries being poor, they're still shit.

 

[anonymous.92]

NO. When it comes to rights and freedoms I am not talking about different countries. What fucking difference does it make if one country requires the husband to grant permission of travel to the wife and another requires permission of travel from the closest male relative. Or one country allows legal murder of a woman caught cheating with another country which states that one man has the legal worth of two women. That's the difference between us. Because you're a humanless prick, you see the fine line. To me it's all the fucking same. They're all fucking over their people cause of their Islam-fail-Sharia law.

I'll tell you what is sad, m8, this is sad:



Because not being able to afford to go to a bar or concert means that one shouldn't need the right to go to one anyway.

And lol @ you thinking poor people don't want or can't go to bars.



And for the record, Afghanistan has American aid, and illegal money from poppies + heroin. Pakistan has American aid and is a nuclear rich nation. So no, don't worry about those countries being poor, they're still shit.

No. You know what is sad? You seriously want to know what is sad? How can you say, what you just said. You basically said that the poor in places like Pakistan are busy entertaining the idea of bars and concerts in their minds. Do you have any idea of the squalor some of them are living in? If you knew anything, you'd know that despite whatever aid comes to those countries, some are living in extreme poverty.

JonathanM do you know what extreme poverty is? How can you say something so ridiculous like that? People, who are struggling to survive are busy wishing for bars and concerts...

As for your first paragraph, yeah there is a fine difference. You know why? Because it makes a difference if someone moves from one Muslim country to another. Obviously, you don't see the fine difference, but that is because it doesn't affect you. If a Muslim woman moves from, say, Iran to Jordan, it'll affect her markedly. You keep thinking of this, from your point of view. It isn't about my point of view, or your point of view. It is about their point of view. And yes, in their eyes, there is a fine difference.

Are you seriously telling me that a person moving from Saudi Arabia to Malaysia wouldn't feel a difference? Because that is exactly what you just implied.

 

[JonathanM]

No. You know what is sad? You seriously want to know what is sad? How can you say, what you just said. You basically said that the poor in places like Pakistan are busy entertaining the idea of bars and concerts in their minds. Do you have any idea of the squalor some of them are living in? If you knew anything, you'd know that despite whatever aid comes to those countries, some are living in extreme poverty.

JonathanM do you know what extreme poverty is? How can you say something so ridiculous like that? People, who are struggling to survive are busy wishing for bars and concerts...

Do you have any idea what an idiot you sound like right now?

Yeah, I know what extreme poverty is, I've volunteered in slums in South Africa and am going to do volunteer work this year in the Middle East. I'm well aware of it, and I know that no matter how poor people are, alcohol is ever present, and it is often consumed in bars - of lesser quality, granted, but bars nonetheless.

You're accusing me of being presumptuous when you're doing the exact same thing by assuming that they don't think about bars, or an escape from their dreary, Islam induced lives.

As for your first paragraph, yeah there is a fine difference. You know why? Because it makes a difference if someone moves from one Muslim country to another. Obviously, you don't see the fine difference, but that is because it doesn't affect you. If a Muslim woman moves from, say, Iran to Jordan, it'll affect her markedly. You keep thinking of this, from your point of view. It isn't about my point of view, or your point of view. It is about their point of view. And yes, in their eyes, there is a fine difference.

Are you seriously telling me that a person moving from Saudi Arabia to Malaysia wouldn't feel a diffference? Because that is exactly what you just implied.

Yeah, because it affects you as well, right?

Simple case of my clear argument not getting through your thick skull. I wasn't arguing that the fine line didn't exist, or that the difference wouldn't be noticed. What I'm arguing is that no matter whether it exists or not, it doesn't really matter if you're going from one oppressed regime to another, no matter what the difference. Like jumping from the pot into the fire. All that should matter for those of us living in the Western world, with the benefit of freedoms and rights granted to us by secularity, is that these people are still living in barbaric conditions due to the restrictions imposed upon them by their religion.

When you tell me that a person living in a human rights shit hole such as Jordan or Malaysia (these are the 'better' Muslim countries, remember) should be greatful or even satisfied with their lives, because, or even excluding the fact that others in Saudi Arabia are living worse lives, that tells me something very definite about how little you give a fuck about the rights of individuals.

 

[philphie]

Do you have any idea what an idiot you sound like right now?

Yeah, I know what extreme poverty is, I've volunteered in slums in South Africa and am going to do volunteer work this year in the Middle East. I'm well aware of it, and I know that no matter how poor people are, alcohol is ever present, and it is often consumed in bars - of lesser quality, granted, but bars nonetheless.

You're accusing me of being presumptuous when you're doing the exact same thing by assuming that they don't think about bars, or an escape from their dreary, Islam induced lives.



Yeah, because it affects you as well, right?

Simple case of my clear argument not getting through your thick skull. I wasn't arguing that the fine line didn't exist, or that the difference wouldn't be noticed. What I'm arguing is that no matter whether it exists or not, it doesn't really matter if you're going from one oppressed regime to another, no matter what the difference. Like jumping from the pot into the fire. All that should matter for those of us living in the Western world, with the benefit of freedoms and rights granted to us by secularity, is that these people are still living in barbaric conditions due to the restrictions imposed upon them by their religion.

When you tell me that a person living in a human rights shit hole such as Jordan or Malaysia (these are the 'better' Muslim countries, remember) should be greatful or even satisfied with their lives, because, or even excluding the fact that others in Saudi Arabia are living worse lives, that tells me something very definite about how little you give a fuck about the rights of individuals.

how old are you really?

 

[violentdelights]

Yes, and I'm Mary Poppins.

 

[JonathanM]

how old are you really?

19 in September.

My family is from South Africa, I visited the slums in Port Elizabeth with them and worked with them, not as an 'official' volunteer, granted, but still helping out, when they went to visit them. The experience is valid for the accusation anonymous.92 made about me never having seen proper poverty, when I have.

 

[JonathanM]

I guess your South African heritage explains why you suppoprt apartheid Israel.

Actually, no, it gives me an excellent insight into how Israel is not an apartheid state.