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Does God exist? (8 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


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The problem comes, I think, not in asking 'IS there God?' but first asking 'What IS God?'

Since the word "God" has many different meanings, it is possible for the sentence "God exists" to express many different propositions. What we need to do is to focus on each proposition separately. … For each different sense of the term "God," there will be theists, atheists, and agnostics relative to that concept of God.
Ignosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For example, (sorry to pick on you, Iron, it's just that everyone has a pretty clear idea of your views about God), if Iron asked me whether I believed in God, I would probably say 'no', because I don't believe in *his* concept of God. However, if someone else asked me, I might say 'yes' or 'maybe' because their view of God might be closer to my own.
 
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Jaamin

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To answer Gerhard's question:

You have "real choice", not free choice, nor free will. Let me explain. Real choice is where you are legitimately presented with two or more realistic options for every decision small or great. For example, when you get up in the morning you do not have the ability to spin around the breadth of the earth 50 times before breakfast, but you do have a choice which breakfast cereal you will eat - will it be the sugary one which your mother said you were not to eat in the weekday or the bland weet-bix. God knows what you would choose on that specific occasion (for example) the sugary coco pops. You executed your 'real choice' and in your heart you decided to disobey your Mother, that is rebell against her, as a signal that you are actually rebelling against God, who gave you your Mother and instructed you to 'submit to authority' and to 'love your neighbour' (which in this case is your mother) and finally to 'honour your mother and father'. By your 'real choice', what God already knew was in your heart is confirmed: rebellion. Just because he knows what you will choose matters only when you consider the grace of God. By his grace he allows you, numerous times to make a real and personal choice to love him. On judgement day you know he is just when he calls you to account for your real choice. What did you choose to do with my revealed word the Bible - to listen or to close your ears? What did you choose to do to those I set over you and under you - to rebell and dominate or submit and rule for my glorious name? And what have you decided to do with my son, Jesus who I sent to pay the penalty for your sins - to acknowledge him as king, saviour and friend or ignore him setting yourself up as king and self-saviour? There is real choice. There is real judgement. God knows before you decide, but that does not diminish your decision. God made you so of course he knows how you tick and how to a whim your heart will decide - but you do not know what God knows, nor is it your business to know - your job is hard enough - deciding every moment how you will respond to Jesus Christ.
 

moll.

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To take this into slightly more romantic terms: I like to think that when cavemen first emerged from their caves and gazed up at the stars, after realising that they in fact weren't food, they decided that there must be something bigger than themselves, and God was born.

So, I wouldn't exactly call it a meager attempt...
You know what was a meagre attempt?
That post.
Fail.
 

moll.

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To answer Gerhard's question:

You have "real choice", not free choice, nor free will. Let me explain. Real choice is where you are legitimately presented with two or more realistic options for every decision small or great. For example, when you get up in the morning you do not have the ability to spin around the breadth of the earth 50 times before breakfast, but you do have a choice which breakfast cereal you will eat - will it be the sugary one which your mother said you were not to eat in the weekday or the bland weet-bix. God knows what you would choose on that specific occasion (for example) the sugary coco pops. You executed your 'real choice' and in your heart you decided to disobey your Mother, that is rebell against her, as a signal that you are actually rebelling against God, who gave you your Mother and instructed you to 'submit to authority' and to 'love your neighbour' (which in this case is your mother) and finally to 'honour your mother and father'. By your 'real choice', what God already knew was in your heart is confirmed: rebellion. Just because he knows what you will choose matters only when you consider the grace of God. By his grace he allows you, numerous times to make a real and personal choice to love him. On judgement day you know he is just when he calls you to account for your real choice. What did you choose to do with my revealed word the Bible - to listen or to close your ears? What did you choose to do to those I set over you and under you - to rebell and dominate or submit and rule for my glorious name? And what have you decided to do with my son, Jesus who I sent to pay the penalty for your sins - to acknowledge him as king, saviour and friend or ignore him setting yourself up as king and self-saviour? There is real choice. There is real judgement. God knows before you decide, but that does not diminish your decision. God made you so of course he knows how you tick and how to a whim your heart will decide - but you do not know what God knows, nor is it your business to know - your job is hard enough - deciding every moment how you will respond to Jesus Christ.
There you have it folks. It's been proven that God will smite you if you eat Fruit Loops for breakfast.

kthnxbye.
 
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moll, bro, coming into NCAP with witty one liners that aren't all that witty is doing nobody any favours. either become more original and funny, or piss off back to non school aight?
 

tommykins

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To answer Gerhard's question:

You have "real choice", not free choice, nor free will. Let me explain. Real choice is where you are legitimately presented with two or more realistic options for every decision small or great. For example, when you get up in the morning you do not have the ability to spin around the breadth of the earth 50 times before breakfast, but you do have a choice which breakfast cereal you will eat - will it be the sugary one which your mother said you were not to eat in the weekday or the bland weet-bix. God knows what you would choose on that specific occasion (for example) the sugary coco pops. You executed your 'real choice' and in your heart you decided to disobey your Mother, that is rebell against her, as a signal that you are actually rebelling against God, who gave you your Mother and instructed you to 'submit to authority' and to 'love your neighbour' (which in this case is your mother) and finally to 'honour your mother and father'. By your 'real choice', what God already knew was in your heart is confirmed: rebellion. Just because he knows what you will choose matters only when you consider the grace of God. By his grace he allows you, numerous times to make a real and personal choice to love him. On judgement day you know he is just when he calls you to account for your real choice. What did you choose to do with my revealed word the Bible - to listen or to close your ears? What did you choose to do to those I set over you and under you - to rebell and dominate or submit and rule for my glorious name? And what have you decided to do with my son, Jesus who I sent to pay the penalty for your sins - to acknowledge him as king, saviour and friend or ignore him setting yourself up as king and self-saviour? There is real choice. There is real judgement. God knows before you decide, but that does not diminish your decision. God made you so of course he knows how you tick and how to a whim your heart will decide - but you do not know what God knows, nor is it your business to know - your job is hard enough - deciding every moment how you will respond to Jesus Christ.
wow you are fucking batshit insane.
 

moll.

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moll, bro, coming into NCAP with witty one liners that aren't all that witty is doing nobody any favours. either become more original and funny, or piss off back to non school aight?
I never go on non-school.
You could always just use the ignore codes.
 
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To answer Gerhard's question:

You have "real choice", not free choice, nor free will. Let me explain. Real choice is where you are legitimately presented with two or more realistic options for every decision small or great. For example, when you get up in the morning you do not have the ability to spin around the breadth of the earth 50 times before breakfast, but you do have a choice which breakfast cereal you will eat - will it be the sugary one which your mother said you were not to eat in the weekday or the bland weet-bix. God knows what you would choose on that specific occasion (for example) the sugary coco pops. You executed your 'real choice' and in your heart you decided to disobey your Mother, that is rebell against her, as a signal that you are actually rebelling against God, who gave you your Mother and instructed you to 'submit to authority' and to 'love your neighbour' (which in this case is your mother) and finally to 'honour your mother and father'. By your 'real choice', what God already knew was in your heart is confirmed: rebellion. Just because he knows what you will choose matters only when you consider the grace of God. By his grace he allows you, numerous times to make a real and personal choice to love him. On judgement day you know he is just when he calls you to account for your real choice. What did you choose to do with my revealed word the Bible - to listen or to close your ears? What did you choose to do to those I set over you and under you - to rebell and dominate or submit and rule for my glorious name? And what have you decided to do with my son, Jesus who I sent to pay the penalty for your sins - to acknowledge him as king, saviour and friend or ignore him setting yourself up as king and self-saviour? There is real choice. There is real judgement. God knows before you decide, but that does not diminish your decision. God made you so of course he knows how you tick and how to a whim your heart will decide - but you do not know what God knows, nor is it your business to know - your job is hard enough - deciding every moment how you will respond to Jesus Christ.
According to your belief system, which is perfectly legitimate for you, but not necessarily what everyone else believes...
 

NCB619

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To answer Gerhard's question:

You have "real choice", not free choice, nor free will. Let me explain. Real choice is where you are legitimately presented with two or more realistic options for every decision small or great. For example, when you get up in the morning you do not have the ability to spin around the breadth of the earth 50 times before breakfast, but you do have a choice which breakfast cereal you will eat - will it be the sugary one which your mother said you were not to eat in the weekday or the bland weet-bix. God knows what you would choose on that specific occasion (for example) the sugary coco pops. You executed your 'real choice' and in your heart you decided to disobey your Mother, that is rebell against her, as a signal that you are actually rebelling against God, who gave you your Mother and instructed you to 'submit to authority' and to 'love your neighbour' (which in this case is your mother) and finally to 'honour your mother and father'. By your 'real choice', what God already knew was in your heart is confirmed: rebellion. Just because he knows what you will choose matters only when you consider the grace of God. By his grace he allows you, numerous times to make a real and personal choice to love him. On judgement day you know he is just when he calls you to account for your real choice. What did you choose to do with my revealed word the Bible - to listen or to close your ears? What did you choose to do to those I set over you and under you - to rebell and dominate or submit and rule for my glorious name? And what have you decided to do with my son, Jesus who I sent to pay the penalty for your sins - to acknowledge him as king, saviour and friend or ignore him setting yourself up as king and self-saviour? There is real choice. There is real judgement. God knows before you decide, but that does not diminish your decision. God made you so of course he knows how you tick and how to a whim your heart will decide - but you do not know what God knows, nor is it your business to know - your job is hard enough - deciding every moment how you will respond to Jesus Christ.

He also instructed us not to "Cut the hair at the sides of your head" and never tp "cut the edges of your beard" and finally, not to "wear clothing woven of two kinds of material."
 
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He also instructed us not to "Cut the hair at the sides of your head" and never tp "cut the edges of your beard" and finally, not to "wear clothing woven of two kinds of material."
Yeah. And...Leviticus says you can have a slave from a neighbouring island, also that you shellfish is an abomination...
 
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i find this an extremely diffiicult question to answer
If you believe in God- cool. get your faith on.

However the confusing part is:
If you say 'i don't believe in God' you have to believe that there is a God to disbelieve in. idk haha.

Does that make sense?
anyone...... Anyone?
No, that does not make sense. Does the Tooth Fairy need to exist for me to not believe in her?
 

BradCube

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Your presupposition, however, is flawed - that the requirements of life are something that had to line up in a row for us to exist. While it's true that we never would have existed without them, individually they are not that unbelievable and governed by simple laws...All not necessarily very special events.
Two points on this:

First, Teleological design arguments usually include the laws themselves when assessing the probability of life existing anywhere in the universe. It asks the question "why are the laws themselves the way they are?". For example, why is the gravitational constant the value it is? If the universe did come from nothing and by nothing, then what governs that these laws are the way they are? This means it is not good enough to simply claim that simple laws reduce the improbability of the events occurring because you first have to address the improbability of the laws themselves.

Secondly let's assume for the sake of argument that all the probabilities when taken on their own aren't that unbelievable. Even when doing this, it still doesn't show that the culmination of all those events are "not that unbelievable". For example consider the rolling of a die. Taken in its own, the probability of rolling a six is not that unbelievable but rolling a six, six times in a row is a 1 in 46656 chance. This means that even if you are able to show that events when taken on their own are not that improbable, you still have to show that the combination of all of them is not that improbable.

Personally I don't get the obsession with the supposed "slight chance" of us existing, because it clearly wasn't slight enough - we're here, aren't we?
Again, this only works if you are presupposing a sort of naturalistic explanation. Flipping back to the poker parody, I could state:

"Personally, I don't get the obsession with the supposed "slight chance" of my getting 100 "royal flushes" in a row, because it clearly wasn't slight enough - I got it didn't I?". One could respond "yes, of course you got it, but I want to know how you got it based on the ridiculously high improbability of it happening by chance alone". The point is that chance alone does not seem to be a satisfactory answer. This is why mutiverse theories which have an eternal past have been put forward.

What? You're very good at obfuscation. And no, the arguments generally go "we don't know how this happened, the only possibility we see is through God, therefore God."
If the above is how you see the god-of-gaps argument, I'm not sure why you have such a problem with it. Essentially from what you have posted I see someone saying "We're not sure how to explain how this happened with our current models. God is currently the best explanation that fits the data and based on this we're proposing that God exists". How is this sort of thing different from any hypothesis (for example proposing the existence of elementary particles such as the higgs boson)? I'm genuinely interested in how you separate these two.

If I was to guess (and so point out if I am incorrect) I would say that you would claim that the only valid hypothesis are those which can be scientifically demonstrated or proven. If that is the case, what happens when we reach the limits of scientific testing? I'm thinking of early stages of the universe or other scenarios where our knowledge bottoms out. What are we supposed to believe today in the cases where science is unable to provide a satisfactory answer and a supernatural explanation fits the data? There seems to be a point at which you're discounting supernatural explanations just on principle.

Because the perspective of science (if a process can have a perspective) is "we don't know how this happened, but let's try and find out, not ignoring all apparently impossible ideas".
But clearly you are ignoring some apparently impossible ideas -namely that of the supernatural. You seem to be ignoring these because you assume that natural explanations are the only valid ones. Is that a fair description? If so, I would challenge you to defend this position.

How is this perspective unfalsifiable? Certainly less so than the presupposition of God, which can never and will never have any proof either way.
Well it depends on what you regard as proof doesn't it? :p Certainly I don't think we'll have any proof in the mathematical sense. However, I think we can have sound philosophical arguments (whose premises can rely on scientific data) which could give us probability to work with.

What I meant is that if you always assume that the science-of-gaps (the belief that there is always a scientific explanation available that will eventually be found) is the preferable route to take, then it is unfalsifiable in the sense that it assumes that there is a scientific answer even if there isn't one - it will continue to be pushed forward as truth even if there is never a satisfactory scientific answer found.
 

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Nice post BradCube, you've put into words some of and more of what pushes my philosophical belief for the possibility of a god. Bravo
 

HalcyonSky

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"Personally, I don't get the obsession with the supposed "slight chance" of my getting 100 "royal flushes" in a row, because it clearly wasn't slight enough - I got it didn't I?". One could respond "yes, of course you got it, but I want to know how you got it based on the ridiculously high improbability of it happening by chance alone". The point is that chance alone does not seem to be a satisfactory answer. This is why mutiverse theories which have an eternal past have been put forward.
how isnt chance a good enough explanation? if you run a simulated poker game in a computer 10^1000000 times, a hundred royal flushes in a row will probably happen simply because it can

how the hell is it a better explanation saying that an ethereal card-loving being manifested itself in the computer and caused it to happen?
 

BradCube

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how isnt chance a good enough explanation? if you run a simulated poker game in a computer 10^1000000 times, a hundred royal flushes in a row will probably happen simply because it can

how the hell is it a better explanation saying that an ethereal card-loving being manifested itself in the computer and caused it to happen?
Because unless you are proposing a multiverse of some sort (i.e. not the standard big bang model) then you only have 1 chance and not 10^1000000 chances.
 

HalcyonSky

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Because unless you are proposing a multiverse of some sort (i.e. not the standard big bang model) then you only have 1 chance and not 10^1000000 chances.
what about an endless cycle of big bangs / crunches?
 

HalcyonSky

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also i dont recall hearing about multiverses in the bible, whats your point
 

Kwayera

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Because unless you are proposing a multiverse of some sort (i.e. not the standard big bang model) then you only have 1 chance and not 10^1000000 chances.
And what's wrong with that? Multiverses aren't impossible, nor particularly implausible. It'd certainly answer your question about chances.
 

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