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The Beijing Olympics (2 Viewers)

Dongle

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Re: Boycott of Olympics

Military considerations for Tibet - control of Indian subcontinent, resources, etc. Surely it's not unreasonable for a country to act in its own self-interest, given the point you raised about Israel keeping occupied land to enhance its own security?
 

ari89

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Re: Boycott of Olympics

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nJ4K0hHin9s
lolchina

If pollution ruins a river, we will build a new river
if pollution destroys a mountain we will build a new mountain

withoutaface said:
MaNiElla said:
Hahahahahhahahahahahahahah

New term for "stealing" eh?
???

1. Arabs attack Israel.
2. Arabs lose. Badly.
3. Arabs have a cry because they were dumb enough to attack in the first place.
lol
 
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Slidey

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withoutaface said:
???

1. Arabs attack Israel.
2. Arabs lose. Badly.
3. Arabs have a cry because they were dumb enough to attack in the first place.
Correct.
 

Aralia

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I'll have to word this carefully.

The world is being misguided by the traitors of China.

Once you're under somebody's rule, you have to listen to them. They want nothing bad for you. It's called having a united front, you work together, you advance together.

China had not been "brutal" to Tibet, initially. Anyone from the mainland will know what I'm talking about. They're the autonomous ones, alright. Deal. No probs. The government used to help them, sending goods over etc. when they needed them, all's peaceful. Now, once they're stronger, they're like the snakes of winter.

Coming back alive and biting like a monster.

Then comes the aggression from the government.

Like all immature bitches and bastards, the traitors of China protest: "WE WANT INDEPENDENCE". Blah blah...no human rights, blah blah.

What the West cannot understand is "pre-quence"...and I dare say that because people may see China as "new money", many resent the country and want it divided up. Moreover, they like to see civil unrest to have a boost themselves. Every country is different. China has survived so many f*cking years than Australia and is booming.

Stop being envious and start growing some backbones yourselves.

China has so many values...values of the family, education...just to name a few. I'm really saddened to see that the rest of the world cannot see that. We are really warm people. Really united. We're only angered when there're traitors within us in the first place.
 

ari89

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Re: Boycott of Olympics

Aralia said:
I'll have to word this carefully.

The world is being misguided by the traitors of China.

Once you're under somebody's rule, you have to listen to them. They want nothing bad for you. It's called having a united front, you work together, you advance together.

China had not been "brutal" to Tibet, initially. Anyone from the mainland will know what I'm talking about. They're the autonomous ones, alright. Deal. No probs. The government used to help them, sending goods over etc. when they needed them, all's peaceful. Now, once they're stronger, they're like the snakes of winter.

Coming back alive and biting like a monster.

Then comes the aggression from the government.

Like all immature bitches and bastards, the traitors of China protest: "WE WANT INDEPENDENCE". Blah blah...no human rights, blah blah.

What the West cannot understand is "pre-quence"...and I dare say that because people may see China as "new money", many resent the country and want it divided up. Moreover, they like to see civil unrest to have a boost themselves. Every country is different. China has survived so many f*cking years than Australia and is booming.

Stop being envious and start growing some backbones yourselves.

China has so many values...values of the family, education...just to name a few. I'm really saddened to see that the rest of the world cannot see that. We are really warm people. Really united. We're only angered when there're traitors within us in the first place.
And death to the Falun Gong!
Long live the victory of Mao Zedong thought!
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/930/sfirstmanmadeearthsatelek7.jpg
 

Dongle

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ari89 said:
And death to the Falun Gong!
Long live the victory of Mao Zedong thought!
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/930/sfirstmanmadeearthsatelek7.jpg
Her point was fair and sincere, yet you deliberately try to misrepresent her. As I've said before, Mao's ideology is basically extinct in the capitalist economy of modern China.

Not death to Falun Gong, it's just we don't like them practising some bullshit 'religion'. Don't you guys feel a bit sceptical towards all those crazy sects you see in the USA as well? Especially those right-wing Christian ones? Falun Gong is some whacked shit....personally I wouldn't appreciate the damn Falun Gong cult deceiving and screwing around with level-headed people.

"...many resent the country and want it divided up. Moreover, they like to see civil unrest to have a boost themselves."

LOL I HAVE NEVER HEARD A MORE SUCCINCT WAY TO EXPRESS THE WEST'S PARANOIA OF CHINA, WANTING TO SEE A CHINA THAT STAYS WEAK AND DIVIDED, WHILE POSTURING THEMSELVES ON THE MORAL HIGH GROUNDS......HAHAHAHA
 
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ari89

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Dongle said:
Her point was fair and sincere, yet you deliberately try to misrepresent her. As I've said before, Mao's ideology is basically extinct in the capitalist economy of modern China.

Not death to Falun Gong, it's just we don't like them practising some bullshit 'religion'. Don't you guys feel a bit sceptical towards all those crazy sects you see in the USA as well? Especially those right-wing Christian ones? Falun Gong is some whacked shit....personally I wouldn't appreciate the damn Falun Gong cult deceiving and screwing around with level-headed people.

"...many resent the country and want it divided up. Moreover, they like to see civil unrest to have a boost themselves."

LOL I HAVE NEVER HEARD A MORE SUCCINCT WAY TO EXPRESS THE WEST'S PARANOIA OF CHINA, WANTING TO SEE A CHINA THAT STAYS WEAK AND DIVIDED, WHILE POSTURING THEMSELVES ON THE MORAL HIGH GROUNDS......HAHAHAHA
My cynicism is a result of the wests fear of China.
We are scared of your superiority and envy your living standards...if only Australia too fell to communism...:(
 
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Dongle

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ari89 said:
My cynicism is a result of the wests fear of China.
We are scared of your superiority and envy your living standards...if only Australia too fell to communism...:(
Again, 'true' communism is irrelevant to today's China. It's like some stereotype silver bullet you can fire out of your moral cannon to denigrate the Chinese people rather than the Chinese government.

I didn't mention living standards nor superiority. Obviously, China is way behind the West in terms of development. But a shouldn't a gradually rising China, lifting millions of people out of poverty, be cherished as an achievement for a fifth of humanity? Need there always be the poor Chinaman to look down upon? Why can't China aspire to have the unity, development and self-determination in internal affairs Western countries do?

Live and let live I say. Prejudice and moral interference probably causes most of the strife in the world today.
 

ari89

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Dongle said:
Again, 'true' communism is irrelevant to today's China. It's like some stereotype silver bullet you can fire out of your moral cannon to denigrate the Chinese people rather than the Chinese government.
Okay, so you missed the entire connection of having fallen to communism being a cause for my post and assumed it was attack against the Chinese race. Awesome...

I didn't mention living standards nor superiority. Obviously, China is way behind the West in terms of development. But a shouldn't a gradually rising China, lifting millions of people out of poverty, be cherished as an achievement for a fifth of humanity? Need there always be the poor Chinaman to look down upon? Why can't China aspire to have the unity, development and self-determination in internal affairs Western countries do?
http://www.multiculturalaustralia.edu.au/img/05IMAGE5.gif


Dongle said:
Live and let live I say. Prejudice and moral interference probably causes most of the strife in the world today.
Dongle said:
Not death to Falun Gong, it's just we don't like them practising some bullshit 'religion'. Don't you guys feel a bit sceptical towards all those crazy sects you see in the USA as well? Especially those right-wing Christian ones? Falun Gong is some whacked shit....personally I wouldn't appreciate the damn Falun Gong cult deceiving and screwing around with level-headed people.
Ohhh...only the Chinese government has the right to exercise prejudice and 'moral interference'?
 
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Dongle

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ari89 said:
Dongle said:
Again, 'true' communism is irrelevant to today's China. It's like some stereotype silver bullet you can fire out of your moral cannon to denigrate the Chinese people rather than the Chinese government.

Okay, so you missed the entire connection of having fallen to communism being a cause for my post and assumed it was attack against the Chinese race. Awesome...



http://www.multiculturalaustralia.edu.au/img/05IMAGE5.gif






Ohhh...only the Chinese government has the right to exercise prejudice and moral interference?
I meant moral interference and prejudice in the context of a government's right to self-determination away from foreign influences, many of which are largely ignorant of the actual domestic situation. So what if Falun Gong is banned? Given the cultural context, the large majority of Chinese people don't usually fall for that bullshit. It's a cultural prejudice the Chinese have every right to. Similalry, Nazi symbols are banned in public in Germany. Is that not a historical prejudice that nonetheless is justified given the wartime sensitivities of the country?

Sorry for the communism thing, that was my bad. I just hate it when 'communist' is used to turn China into a moral scapegoat. It's archaic Cold War era language which just fosters the 'us vs them' mentality, instead of the spirit of internationalism and non-interference I admire.

EDIT: As for the picture, you know that it's obviously quite biased, so I'm inclined to believe it's more of a flamebait. No thanks.
I appreciate that you may think that China's development may hurt Western manufacturers, etc. But every country's economic development is in its own self-interest, so Chinese have done nothing wrong in the capitalistic sense as well.
 
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Slidey

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Aralia said:
I'll have to word this carefully.

The world is being misguided by the traitors of China.

Once you're under somebody's rule, you have to listen to them. They want nothing bad for you. It's called having a united front, you work together, you advance together.

China had not been "brutal" to Tibet, initially. Anyone from the mainland will know what I'm talking about. They're the autonomous ones, alright. Deal. No probs. The government used to help them, sending goods over etc. when they needed them, all's peaceful. Now, once they're stronger, they're like the snakes of winter.

Coming back alive and biting like a monster.

Then comes the aggression from the government.

Like all immature bitches and bastards, the traitors of China protest: "WE WANT INDEPENDENCE". Blah blah...no human rights, blah blah.

What the West cannot understand is "pre-quence"...and I dare say that because people may see China as "new money", many resent the country and want it divided up. Moreover, they like to see civil unrest to have a boost themselves. Every country is different. China has survived so many f*cking years than Australia and is booming.

Stop being envious and start growing some backbones yourselves.

China has so many values...values of the family, education...just to name a few. I'm really saddened to see that the rest of the world cannot see that. We are really warm people. Really united. We're only angered when there're traitors within us in the first place.
So anybody who disagrees with the government is a traitor? Anybody who has different values is a traitor?

Anybody who campaigns for human rights in China is a "bitch" or "bastard"?
 

Dongle

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Slidey said:
So anybody who disagrees with the government is a traitor? Anybody who has different values is a traitor?

Anybody who campaigns for human rights in China is a "bitch" or "bastard"?
Splitting hairs, I'm afraid. You didn't exactly address the main thread of her argument - the Chinese are a people who have every right to unify the nation, regardless of ethnic diversity. Do you think the 'peace-loving' Tibetans would have left China alone if they had relative military superiority?

Would you appreciate it if the entire white population of the Sydney east coast proposes that we jump into the sea to allow the formation on an independent Aboriginal nation? I'm afraid we were once colonisers as well. Do the Aborigines, according to you, have the human right of self-determination, in order to start a sovereign state? The first word that would jump into my mind is traitor, not some moral idealisation like 'defenders of human rights.
 
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Slidey

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Dongle said:
Splitting hairs, I'm afraid. You didn't exactly address the main thread of her argument - the Chinese are a people who have every right to unify the nation, regardless of ethnic diversity. Do you think the 'peace-loving' Tibetans would have left China alone if they had relative military superiority?

Would you appreciate it if the entire white population of the Sydney east coast proposes that we jump into the sea to allow the formation on an independent Aboriginal nation? I'm afraid we were once colonisers as well. Do the Aborigines, according to you, have the human right of self-determination, in order to start a sovereign state? The first word that would jump into my mind is traitor, not some moral idealisation like 'defenders of human rights.
Sorry, was that the point flying straight over your head?
 

Dongle

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Not too bright? In what way? It's human nature to try and dominate. So don't you think it's a bit hypocritical for the West to lecture China on imperialism, given that it has done most of the colonising in human history?

Slidey: ??? Elaborate, didn't really get what you said. Sorry.
 

Slidey

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Dongle said:
Slidey: ??? Elaborate, didn't really get what you said. Sorry.
Well, basically I was just shocked that you were saying human rights in China don't matter because they get in the way of 'unity' and totalitarianism.

And that you were saying human rights abuses in China now don't matter because various cultures in the past have made human rights mistakes.

Yeah, I guess I was just too shocked to post!
 

Dongle

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Schroedinger said:
No, you see, in the 'West', let's call it the 'Civilized world' we learned that Annexation of other countries and Imperialism is in fact, not the right thing to do. As you'll notice, Liberalism tries to lead by example, and tries to establish trading and business connections with other countries.

Our societies treat every individual as a human being, not a number. From an objective standpoint, what China has done is morally repugnant, and how arrogant they are about their 'rights' to Tibet, is even more shocking.

A Government and the leadership of a country is in no way, shape, or form, more important than the people of that country.

It is slightly paternalistic of the west to make noises at China's actions, but we're doing so because we know better.
The West may have recognised the evils of colonialism. But that doesn't mean they have stopped doing it. What about the various US military bases stationed throughout the Pacific, in Guam, Japan, South Korea etc? The invasion of a sovereign nation - Iraq? Aren't these modern-day examples of colonialism? Isn't trying to impose your morals and values on other countries also a form of imperialism in the information age? Should China have to cede territory jst because outsiders believe that every individual should have the right of self-determination, ie: independence? The Aboriginals are economically and culturally marginalised in Australia, like the Tibetans, and constantly demand change, etc. But does Australia grant any form of indepedence? No, because we know better. Should we grant them independence? No, because Australians wouldn't like it and it would not be in the national self-interest to lose territory. Similarly, the majority of Chinese do not want Tibet to secede, like the sane citizens who want to maintain the power and sovereignty of their nation away from foreign influences. Is that not the voice of the people, ie: democracy? I'm sure any referendum in Australia granting sovereignty to the Aboriginal state would be defeated, simply because of the governing principle of democracy: the interests of the majority rule.

Anyway, back to the Olympics. I hope we have a good games this year. We probably will, and afterwards Tibet will be swept under the carpet by Western moralists simply because it's not 'hip' and in the spotlight anymore. Perhaps you should start campaigning against corruption, starvation and AIDS in Africa instead. It probably has a greater element of human tragedy, but has always been there and hence been less fashionable to embrace as a humanitarian cause. The newest human right 'abuse' outside the west gets full attention because it gives opportunity for us to vent our moral narcissism, a need for ourselves to feel better by striking others down.
 
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Slidey

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Dongle said:
The West may have recognised the evils of colonialism. But that doesn't mean they have stopped doing it. What about the various US military bases stationed throughout the Pacific, in Guam, Japan, South Korea etc?
They all have mutual defence treaties with America you twit. They specifically WANT American bases there. Japan because it is worried about China, and South Korea because it was worried about China and North Korea.

The invasion of a sovereign nation - Iraq?
That's a thread in and of itself. Still, controlling Iraq was never America's agenda - pulling out eventually and returning power to the citizens of Iraq was always planned, regardless of whether or not you believe moving into Iraq was for good or ill.

Aren't these modern-day examples of colonialism?
No. You should probably check what colonialism means.

Isn't trying to impose your morals and values on other countries also a form of imperialism in the information age?
No, campaigning for better human rights in China is a form of caring. One human sees another human in suffering, and as a result they feel moved to try to find somewhere to alleviate that person's pain. Is this a foreign concept to you? Because you keep trying to call it imperialism or Western bias (whatever that's supposed to mean) - as though human rights are a Western invention and people in China don't value their own lives.

Should China have to cede territory jst because outsiders believe that every individual should have the right of self-determination, ie: independence?
Cede territory? Dude, China took over it last century. It was never yours to take. Yes it bloody well deserves indepence; it's an entirely distinct culture and people.

Not to mention it's not "outsiders" who believe it should be independent - it's the Tibetans themselves, and has been since the start; the West simply acknowledges the validity of their claim.

The Aboriginals are economically and culturally marginalised in Australia, like the Tibetans, and constantly demand change, etc. But does Australia grant any form of indepedence?
You gigantic bastard. You're really going to claim that the Aboriginals are like the Tibetans? Do you even know anything about either culture?

Similarly, the majority of Chinese do not want Tibet to secede, like the sane citizens who want to maintain the power and sovereignty of their nation away from foreign influences.
The majority of Chinese are brainwashed by their government, as I'm sure you'll agree (it is afterall the purpose of the internet firewall, the Propaganda Department, etc). Still, it is regardless not the Chinese's choice. Tibet has never really been part of China, and certainly hasn't been related to Chinese rule in anyway for the past 400 years - and that includes Mongol rule. It was a seperate nation for far longer than it has ever been part of China.

Is that not the voice of the people, ie: democracy? I'm sure any referendum in Australia granting sovereignty to the Aboriginal state would be defeated, simply because of the governing principle of democracy: the interests of the majority rule.
Here you go back to your incorrect "you did it, so can we!" argument. Aboriginals have very powerful inbuilt defences and rights in today's Australia. While the Tibetans are oppressed and silenced, and have no benefits or rights as the first rulers of their country before the Chinese occupation. Further, many Aboriginal settlements exist in Queensland and Northern Australia. Unlike China, we don't try to force them to mingle and drown out their remaining culture by forcing our citizens to move into their settlements.

And re democracy: no. We practice 'liberal democracy' in the majority of the Western world, which is a) representative, and b) places constraints on the will of the majority.

Anyway, back to the Olympics. I hope we have a good games this year. We probably will, and afterwards Tibet will be swept under the carpet by Western moralists simply because it's not 'hip' and in the spotlight anymore.
Tibet has been under the spotlight for a long time you jerk. You can't just "sweep it under the carpet" because fewer eyes are watching.

Perhaps you should start campaigning against corruption, starvation and AIDS in Africa instead.
Many people already do, in case you've never heard of the concept of 'aid organisation'. Many such organisations also operate in China to help that country out.

It probably has a greater element of human tragedy, but has always been there and hence been less fashionable to embrace as a humanitarian cause. The newest human right 'abuse' outside the west gets full attention because it gives opportunity for us to vent our moral narcissism, a need for ourselves to feel better by striking others down.
You really are an asshole. You're so bitter and twisted that you think trying to help others have better lives is a product of selfishness and narcissim? Get out of my sight.
 
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danlan

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Slidey said:
They all have mutual defence treaties with America you twit. They specifically WANT American bases there. Japan because it is worried about China, and South Korea because it was worried about China and North Korea.


That's a thread in and of itself. Still, controlling Iraq was never America's agenda - pulling out eventually and returning power to the citizens of Iraq was always planned, regardless of whether or not you believe moving into Iraq was for good or ill.


No. You should probably check what colonialism means.


No, compaigning for better human rights in China is a form of caring. One human sees another human in suffering, and as a result they feel moved to try to find somewhere to alleviate that person's pain. Is this a foreign concept to you? Because you keep trying to call it imperialism or Western bias (whatever that's supposed to mean) - as though human rights are a Western invention and people in China don't value their own lives.


Cede territory? Dude, China took over it last century. It was never yours to take. Yes it bloody well deserves indepence; it's an entirely distinct culture and people.

Not to mention it's not "outsiders" who believe it should be independent - it's the Tibetans themselves, and has been since the start; the West simply acknowledges the validity of their claim.


You gigantic bastard. You're really going to claim that the Aboriginals are like the Tibetans? Do you even know anything about either culture?


The majority of Chinese are brainwashed by their government, as I'm sure you'll agree (it is afterall the purpose of the internet firewall, the Propaganda Department, etc). Still, it is regardless not the Chinese's choice. Tibet has never really been part of China, and certainly hasn't been related to Chinese rule in anyway for the past 400 years - and that includes Mongol rule. It was a seperate nation for far longer than it has ever been part of China.


Are you a complete tool? Aboriginals have very powerful inbuilt defences and rights in today's Australia. While the Tibetans are oppressed and silenced, and have no benefits or rights as the first rulers of their country before the Chinese occupation. Anyway, many Aboriginal settlements exist in Queensland and Northern Australia. Unlike China, we don't try to force them to mingle and drown out their culture by forcing our citizens to move into their settlements.

And re democracy: no. We practice 'liberal democracy' in the majority of the Western world, which is a) representative, and b) places constraints on the will of the majority.


Tibet has been under the spotlight for a long time you jerk. You can't just "sweep it under the carpet" because fewer eyes are watching.


Many people already do, in case you've never heard of the concept of 'aid organisation'. Many such organisations also operate in China to help that country out.


You really are an asshole. You're so bitter and twisted that you think trying to help others have better lives is a product of selfishness and narcissim? Get out of my sight.

If you think you could ever "enlighten" "brainwashed" Chinese in this way, it would be ridiculous.
 

Slidey

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danlan said:
If you think you could ever "enlighten" "brainwashed" Chinese in this way, it would be ridiculous.
You're right; the truth never got anybody anyway. Maybe I should resort to tapping their phone lines, secret police, spreading propaganda, filtering what they see and hear, and sowing a self-propagating web of life-threatening fear for anybody who disagrees with me in any way?
 

Dongle

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I'm sorry, I'm just too cynical and brainwashed to believe that any humanitarian cause is without narcissitic strings attached. Perhaps I've lost my faith in humanity? *joke*

Point about Africa: It's just that many FREE TIBET people chant it like it's some throwaway phrase to elevate yourself morally, yet disregard many other more pressing issues. Do they sincerely care about AIDS? Most likely not. Do they sincerely care about famine? Most likely not.

Point about knowing Aboriginal/Tibetan culture: do you know anything about China besides some exaggerated preconceptions? Sure, human rights isn't exactly enshrined, but it's not like some East German police state. Tapping phone lines is done in the west. The West also has 'secret' police that infringe on civil liberties - CIA monitoring of emails/phone calls or Mohammed Haneef, anyone? Spreading propaganda - isn't the Western media essentially so skewed that it resembles propaganda? Just because it's not controlled by the government doesn't mean it still has the same ignorance and prejudice-inducing effect conventional propaganda has.

Aboriginals are still marginalised, regardless of what protections and whatnot you think they have, yet do you worry about them day and night, their cultural integrity, their wellbeing as a minority, etc? What have you done for the alcohol, drug and sexual abuse issues that permeate their communities? Do you sincerely care??? And you have the nerve of accusing me of being some sort of sociopath. Is there anything wrong with being sceptical about altruism? Does questioning altruism affect the altruistic act itself? No, so I'm completely allowed to take everything with a grain of salt before I accept it.

Chinese nationalism, or 'brainwashing' as you call it, isn't exactly a new phenomenon. Patriotism instantly is equated to brainwashing, somehow portraying it as an unnatural response. Surely, it's understandable that a citizen, brainwashed or not, wouldn't enjoy foreign forces trying to divide their country?
 

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